ESPN- C7 adding five additional teams to the league

[GumbyDamnit!]

Edrick let's say you built a prestigious law firm and decided to split off with 6 other partners and decided to engage other talent to join. And then you told that talent that they would be making 4-5x what they were currently making and they would be moving from the 12 floor middle office to the 20th floor corner office, would that be a fair offer? From what I can see the C7 is doing all of the heavy lifting right now. In this scenario there may be some partners that are past their prime (Depaul, Prov, etc) and new associates who are primed to be Rainmakers (Butler, XU) but why should they be invited in at the same equity position? Now it should absolutely be graduated over a set period of time. In the long run it'll cause problems. Maybe unequal for the first 3-4 years then slowly leveled out. But for you to think at 1). This is a bad deal for a Creighton or a Dayton or SLU you are crazy. 2). That this is something new (see WVU joining Big 12 as an unequal member) and 3). That the negotiating is over for all parties. Before you freak out and stomp off wait and see what happens. This is a big boy conversation with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, and hopefully all parties are bringing very competent negotiators with the business acumen to make the proper valuations of this particulars of this deal.[/quote]

But that's not the situation. The old 7 need the new 5 as much as the new guys need the current 7. The 7 on their own are tired and generally worn out and everyone knows it. It's the new blood that will make the league.[/quote]

Agreed X. We all need each other. Just saying that the C7 are offering the others a better situation because of a deal that they have struck on their own. Now I don't think it'll happen but what if XU and Butler decline and/or UCONN, Cinn, temple and Memphis see the writing on the wall and beg to be included and agree to ridiculous exit fees? The others are stuck in an inferior league with a terrible tv contract. No one wants that. I don't think a short term unequal arrangement is going to turn them away so quickly. That would be a bad business decision.[/quote]

As a nova fan, as mush as I'm excited about the prospects of this new league, if the ACC gave us a call tomorrow and offered us the same BB only deal as ND at 1/2 the normal conf payout, I would hope Nova would take a very close look at that business deal and think with their head and not their nuts. I think the Pres.'s of XU, BUtler and Creighton will do the same.

[xman]

Agreed X. We all need each other. Just saying that the C7 are offering the others a better situation because of a deal that they have struck on their own. Now I don't think it'll happen but what if XU and Butler decline and/or UCONN, Cinn, temple and Memphis see the writing on the wall and beg to be included and agree to ridiculous exit fees? The others are stuck in an inferior league with a terrible tv contract. No one wants that. I don't think a short term unequal arrangement is going to turn them away so quickly. That would be a bad business decision.

To your point, I could argue that Xavier and Butler have done well for themselves in basketball despite a crappy conference TV deal. The desire to join the new league is to be with peer institutions first and foremost which might elevate the exposure of the University as a whole.

[Jet915]

If it's 5 more teams, I'd think the last spot is between SLU and VCU. Although I agree w/XMAN, I would like to see X, Butler, Creighton, Gonzaga and VCU but I don't see that happening.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Agreed X. We all need each other. Just saying that the C7 are offering the others a better situation because of a deal that they have struck on their own. Now I don't think it'll happen but what if XU and Butler decline and/or UCONN, Cinn, temple and Memphis see the writing on the wall and beg to be included and agree to ridiculous exit fees? The others are stuck in an inferior league with a terrible tv contract. No one wants that. I don't think a short term unequal arrangement is going to turn them away so quickly. That would be a bad business decision.

To your point, I could argue that Xavier and Butler have done well for themselves in basketball despite a crappy conference TV deal. The desire to join the new league is to be with peer institutions first and foremost which might elevate the exposure of the University as a whole.

Bingo. We all want this to work and collectively we see the value that others bring to the table and to each others Universities. It's a win-win for everyone. If I were King of the Conference, I would bend over backwards to usher in Butler and Xavier, and even consider les of a split for them than for any others. Great, great programs. A short term unequal payout by no means equates to 1st and 2nd class citizenry in this conference. With the exception of conference affiliation in the past, I think Xavier and Nova are without question, peers, in the basketball world. I am really looking forward to seeing a new rivalry blossom. But when smarter people than me sit down to work out these complex deals, the equity already built for a certain product needs to be taken into consideration. And when you consider that the C7 have already seemingly successfully negotiated a very lucrative TV deal, I don't think this is going to be a long-term issue at all. Let's instead talk about how do we get this conference to a 5-6 bid conference like it should be.

[Hoya]

A short term unequal payout by no means equates to 1st and 2nd class citizenry in this conference.

I hope that it would be short term if anything. Don't screw up the league by getting big heads right now.

[ChiFlyer]

The C7 are united and driving the situation. They are the main reason the big money is being offered. XU & Butler should not accept lesser money than the C7 and at 9 teams you have a legitimate conference. These two schools bring as much to the table as any of the C7 tables and are true equals. Now where I think it gets interesting is the additional 1-3 schools that you add. They all have warts. (For the people putting Creighton above SLU and UD for their on court performance have not looked at the last decade. Creighton has not won many NCAA games.) Gonzaga and VCU have great programs. But Gonzaga is thousands of miles away in a non market. VCU is a big state school. Creighton, SLU, and UD have very similar strengths and weaknesses. Good fan bases, solid programs that lack recent NCAA success, and the money to compete in the new league. Creighton is probably the best of these three, but its close when you look at the numbers objectively. I think the C7 is in a position to twist the screw on all the available schools after XU & Butler. And I don't think any of the schools would or should say no. What if UD said, we want in the league and give us a million a year for ten years. We have plenty of money and missing out on 3 million a year won't kill us. We are still getting double what we get now. Anyone of these schools could do this, but will they? If any school says no, there are plenty of other schools that will say yes. There are a bunch of schools that would not be perfect fits, but would be adequate. Duquense, George Mason, Saint Mary's, (UCONN, Cincy, Memphis, Temple if they would dump football or go to the MAC maybe.), St Joes, etc.....

Outside of XU & Butler, the league doesn't need any of these schools and they will take what is offered. It will get interesting in 5 -10 years if Providense, SH, and DePaul (Saint John's to a lesser degree, MSG and NYC are really important.) still suck and are getting more money than the programs that joined and got less money. I'm excited to see what happens. I hope UD gets in, but if they don't they will be fine. They have the infrastructure to be good and the A-10 will still be a multi bid league and would probably add some CAA schools. If SLU doesn't get in they can go to the MVC and will be fine. If Creighton doesn't get in, they are still in the multi bid MVC. With the CAA schools and other solid, but lesser programs, the A-10 and the MVC will be able to offset the losses and still be solid. Instead of being the 5th - 10th best conference in a given year they will be the 7th -12th best conference.

To play devils advocate, should the prospective schools go to a league where they will be struggling to finish .500 in conference play or stay in a smaller pond and compete for auto bids year in and year out?

[GumbyDamnit!]

To play devils advocate, should the prospective schools go to a league where they will be struggling to finish .500 in conference play or stay in a smaller pond and compete for auto bids year in and year out?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

These teams should always strive for the better overall league. If you are committed, then competing against others better than you will only bring your product up. That is unless by moving to another conference you relinquish some regional rivalries that have established who you are. BC, after leaving the BE and the great rivalries against UCONN, GT, Syr and Nova lost their BB identity and they've never been the same. Actually they are kind of irrelevant now. They used to have a nice BB program.

[Bluejay]

The C7 are united and driving the situation. They are the main reason the big money is being offered. XU & Butler should not accept lesser money than the C7 and at 9 teams you have a legitimate conference. These two schools bring as much to the table as any of the C7 tables and are true equals. Now where I think it gets interesting is the additional 1-3 schools that you add. They all have warts. (For the people putting Creighton above SLU and UD for their on court performance have not looked at the last decade. Creighton has not won many NCAA games.) Gonzaga and VCU have great programs. But Gonzaga is thousands of miles away in a non market. VCU is a big state school. Creighton, SLU, and UD have very similar strengths and weaknesses. Good fan bases, solid programs that lack recent NCAA success, and the money to compete in the new league. Creighton is probably the best of these three, but its close when you look at the numbers objectively. I think the C7 is in a position to twist the screw on all the available schools after XU & Butler. And I don't think any of the schools would or should say no. What if UD said, we want in the league and give us a million a year for ten years. We have plenty of money and missing out on 3 million a year won't kill us. We are still getting double what we get now. Anyone of these schools could do this, but will they? If any school says no, there are plenty of other schools that will say yes. There are a bunch of schools that would not be perfect fits, but would be adequate. Duquense, George Mason, Saint Mary's, (UCONN, Cincy, Memphis, Temple if they would dump football or go to the MAC maybe.), St Joes, etc.....

Outside of XU & Butler, the league doesn't need any of these schools and they will take what is offered. It will get interesting in 5 -10 years if Providense, SH, and DePaul (Saint John's to a lesser degree, MSG and NYC are really important.) still suck and are getting more money than the programs that joined and got less money. I'm excited to see what happens. I hope UD gets in, but if they don't they will be fine. They have the infrastructure to be good and the A-10 will still be a multi bid league and would probably add some CAA schools. If SLU doesn't get in they can go to the MVC and will be fine. If Creighton doesn't get in, they are still in the multi bid MVC. With the CAA schools and other solid, but lesser programs, the A-10 and the MVC will be able to offset the losses and still be solid. Instead of being the 5th - 10th best conference in a given year they will be the 7th -12th best conference.

To play devils advocate, should the prospective schools go to a league where they will be struggling to finish .500 in conference play or stay in a smaller pond and compete for auto bids year in and year out?

No team that wants to be competitive is going to agree to a long term deal where they will never earn as much as others in their own conference. To do so would be to essentially admit that you have no desire to ever compete for conference titles (and maybe even NCAA tourney births) and are simply happy just getting a check. If the BE 7 are looking for teams that ONLY want to get a check and do not intend to compete, the conference ultimately won't be as successful, garner as much respect and won't be as exciting (I also think that when it comes time for renewal of the initial TV contract, you'll be looking at less dollars as well). If that is what the BE 7 are looking for, they might as well just offer Fordham and LaSalle memberships. Teams like that will probably be happy with whatever spare change you toss their direction, but the league will not be anywhere near as good or stable long term.

As a fan, I am more concerned about my team being able to compete. If that means saying no to the new league because the league insists on an unequal revenue split, I'd be a bit disappointed, but would understand that the decision is the best for my school's chances in the long term. I'd rather get less money and have a chance at future NCAA tournament appearances than be the whore in the corner that just boasts about how much money I've made.

Now, a short window of disparate amounts to compensate some schools for organizational and related start up costs for the new league is completely acceptable. But if the plan is for longer than that, I wouldn't be interested.

[pki1998]

Edrick let's say you built a prestigious law firm and decided to split off with 6 other partners and decided to engage other talent to join. And then you told that talent that they would be making 4-5x what they were currently making and they would be moving from the 12 floor middle office to the 20th floor corner office. Would that be a fair offer? From what I can see the C7 is doing all of the heavy lifting right now. In this scenario there may be some partners that are past their prime (Depaul, Prov, etc) and new associates who are primed to be Rainmakers (Butler, XU) but why should they be invited in at the same equity position? Now it should absolutely be graduated over a set period of time. In the long run it'll cause problems. Maybe unequal for the first 3-4 years then slowly leveled out. But for you to think at 1). This is a bad deal for a Creighton or a Dayton or SLU you are crazy. 2). That this is something new (see WVU joining Big 12 as an unequal member) and 3). That the negotiating is over for all parties. Before you freak out and stomp off wait and see what happens. This is a big boy conversation with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, and hopefully all parties are bringing very competent negotiators with the business acumen to make the proper valuations of this particulars of this deal. No one's walking away from any table.

I like the law firm Analogy, I just think it needs some work though. The Catholic Seven partners are breaking away from the prestigious law firm over philosophical differences (whether or not basketball matters). As you mentioned they are taking associates (other sports such as baseball, women’s basketball, etc). They are also prying away some partners from other firms (conferences), who will take their associates with them. Now the Catholic Seven have a few superstar partners (Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova), a young partner with a lot of potential (St. Johns) and three HUNCs (High Units No Clients) named Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul.

The Catholic Seven have a great reputation, but know they are too small to be considered a white shoe firm (yes I realize the irony of the Catholic Seven being compared to a white shoe) and they need to expand and increase their service offerings (games for the media monster). So they create a wish list of potential new partners that probably goes something like this.

1) Notre Dame – Notre Dame split from the old firm just before the Catholic Seven. They have philosophical differences with the Catholic Seven (they believe football is life, the rest is just details). But the Catholic Seven have to try for the Hail Mary (pun intended), and see if they can make a deal with Notre Dame, allowing ND to have an independent practice (Football) and join the firm in all other matters. Unfortunately for the Catholic Seven, Notre Dame knows that the only way to keep the independent practice relevant is to be in a referral network of like-minded firms, so that they can have access to their connections (bowl tie-ins).

2) Well the Hail Mary doesn’t work, so the Catholic Seven go onto plan B. Connecticut. Connecticut and the Catholic Seven go way back, hell four of the seven created the firm with Connecticut 30+ years ago, and you know no matter what happens these guys are still going to hang out (Out Of Conference Games). Connecticut and the Catholic Seven really don’t have philosophical differences (they are all basketball first schools) but UConn has been lying to themselves for several years chasing money on the other side of the philosophical divide (football). In the end Connecticut continues to lie to themselves and turns down the Catholic Seven’s offer to join the firm.

The Catholic Seven are disappointed that their two best friends won’t join up with them but they start out a search committee to find the perfect partners to join the practice. These new partners won’t be associates ready to make the jump but establish partners that can bring a Book of Business (Basketball Revenue) Client Base (Attendance/Media Attractiveness), Trial Success (NCAA Appearances and Wins). The search committee’s report can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

After deliberations between the Catholic Seven and their advisors (Cable TV Networks), they decided that they need to add 5 (according to recent reports) new partners to be consider a top flight firm. Now let’s be honest when the Catholic Seven look at the report no one is perfect. The two perfect schools already turned them down. But there are three schools the truly stick out above the rest.

Xavier – Xavier is a well respected lawyer with a strong record as a litigator (i.e the win a lot of games every year). They started out at a small firm (Midwest Collegiate Conference), and then moved up to a mid-tier firm (The Atlantic Ten). They were the superstars of each firm. They have a large book of business (bball revenue is greater than every Catholic Seven school except Marquette and every other candidate), large client base (5 year average home attendance greater than 5 of the Catholic Seven), and Great Trial Success (more NCAA appearances and wins in the last 10 years than any Catholic Seven team, second in appearances and wins of all the candidates). Plus Xavier was in the same fraternity (Jesuit Order) as the two most powerful partners in the Catholic Seven (Georgetown, and Marquette). Marquette also started out at the same small firm Xavier did (Midwest Collegiate Conference) and remembers what a great coworker Xavier was. The Catholic Seven and their advisors huddle up and agree Xavier is going to get the invite to join the league

Butler – Butler is a young fireball of a partner. Butler started out at a small firm (the horizon league) with Xavier and Marquette. Butler didn’t let the small firm stop them from greatness. In fact, Butler argued two cases in a row before the Supreme Court (back to back Tourney Final Games). After that success Butler joined Xavier at the Mid-Tier Firm, and has already skyrocketed to the top. They don’t have the Book of Business (revenue) or client base (enrollment, attendance) that the Catholic Seven want yet, but everyone knows Butler is a rising star, and the move up to a top tier firm will expand their book of business. Culturally they aren’t a perfect fit, they were never in the Fraternity system (Catholic) like the other partners, but they are from a good family (another private school). The Catholic Seven talk it over and agree they are worth the small amount of risk.

Gonzaga – Gonzaga would be a great add. Great book of business, client base and trial success, and Gonzaga has done this at a small local firm. Everyone knows that Gonzaga will become even better if he ever jumps ship for a top flight firm. In addition Gonzaga is also a frat brother of Xavier, Georgetown and Marquette. The problem is Gonzaga’s practice is way out on the west coast and the travel is going to be a consistent problem. In the end the Catholic Seven decides the geography is too much to overcome.

I could go through each of the candidates, but that would take a long time, so I am going to skip a bit. The Catholic Seven makes the decision to add three other partners (probably three of the following VCU, Creighton, SLU and Dayton)

The partners decide it’s been a long day, so they go to the country club for some scotch and cigars. They even call up the potential new partners and see if they wish to join in on the fun. Late in the evening after a few too many drams of Laphroaig, one of the HUNCs decides that the new partners shouldn’t get the same amount of units as the original Catholic Seven partners.

That brings us up to today. Here is what I think will happen VCU the lone partner that comes from a poor family (public school) knows that he doesn’t exactly fit in, and decides not to rock the boat. He tells the Catholic Seven that unequal revenue sharing doesn’t make him happy but it’s not a deal breaker.

St. Louis and/or Dayton realize that Xavier, Butler and Creighton were added before them and that there are still plenty of other candidates that could take their place. They are willing agree to the disproportional number of units without any comments since they are just happy to be invited

Creighton is in a tough position, geographically they are an outlier and they have to know that is why their frat brother Gonzaga wasn’t invited. Creighton is clearly stronger than St Louis or Dayton, and realize they are close to a lock to get in but don’t want to risk it. So they voice some displeasure but agrees that this will not stop them from joining

Next up is Butler and Xavier. Butler and Xavier know they are in the driver’s seat. As long as the A-10 keeps Butler Xavier and St Joes, the conference will be a good mid-level conference which Xavier and Butler can excel in. In addition there is a good chance that VCU, Dayton and SLU stay at their firm unless Xavier and Butler switch to the Catholic Seven Firm.

This scares the scrap out of Marquette Georgetown and Villanova, because they know they need Xavier and Butler. Georgetown Marquette and Villanova, tell the HUNCs to go pound salt. If they want disproportional units it will be based on each teams Book of Business, Client Base, and Trial Success otherwise revenue will be distributed to all partners evenly after the recovery of all startup related expenses.

Everyone calms down and realizes this is for the best, and the group goes back to smoking cigars and drinking scotch.

[Edrick]

You just won the Internet