Katz: C7 looking to add Richmond?

[yorost]

Of course Fox wants to sell games, but if Richmond has a bigger national audience (I'm not saying it does) than VCU, wouldn't they prefer Richmond? In Richmond it is an issue as you clearly pointed out, but as I understand it part of that is Richmond has a greater alumni diaspora. Now, I agree with you about filling the seats, that's a plus for VCU, but looking at a few attendance stats in past years this is a recent trend. Was VCU like this 3 seasons ago? Are they a diehard fan base or fair weather? Were the roles reversed in the 90's? It's one thing to have a great environment now, and one to even have it in poor years. If they drop a little will they still have it when they come back?

Richmond will have better crowds with BE7 play. They would keep most of their best sellers (I would guess) and upgrade from most of what they were leaving behind. Maybe VCU is more appealing for tv, but the question is also how much more? I don't believe tv is the say all as some do. If tey think Richmond will help keep the conference stable more than VCU then there is value there, too. I'm not saying that's the case, VCU does seem a better basketball fit, but if Richmond made Georgetown happier I'd say it's almost a must take. Georgetown is clear basketball brand and academic institution in this conference, they are the one school that is probably most likely to be poached and probably most wanting to leave. If they want a piece here or there, they need to be listened to. ...I don't think they're on the verge of leaving or even have anybody seriously considering an offer to them, but I wonder if they don't want to find a way to move up in the coming future.

edit: Just to emphasize, that's speculative and genuine curiosity, not trying to imply conclusions. I know almost nothing about Richmond or VCU, just a few quick reads and some quick browsing of basketball history.

[Natty]

Of course Fox wants to sell games, but if Richmond has a bigger national audience (I'm not saying it does) than VCU, wouldn't they prefer Richmond? In Richmond it is an issue as you clearly pointed out, but as I understand it part of that is Richmond has a greater alumni diaspora. Now, I agree with you about filling the seats, that's a plus for VCU, but looking at a few attendance stats in past years this is a recent trend. Was VCU like this 3 seasons ago? Are they a diehard fan base or fair weather? Were the roles reversed in the 90's? It's one thing to have a great environment now, and one to even have it in poor years. If they drop a little will they still have it when they come back?

Richmond will have better crowds with BE7 play. They would keep most of their best sellers (I would guess) and upgrade from most of what they were leaving behind. Maybe VCU is more appealing for tv, but the question is also how much more? I don't believe tv is the say all as some do. If tey think Richmond will help keep the conference stable more than VCU then there is value there, too. I'm not saying that's the case, VCU does seem a better basketball fit, but if Richmond made Georgetown happier I'd say it's almost a must take. Georgetown is clear basketball brand and academic institution in this conference, they are the one school that is probably most likely to be poached and probably most wanting to leave. If they want a piece here or there, they need to be listened to. ...I don't think they're on the verge of leaving or even have anybody seriously considering an offer to them, but I wonder if they don't want to find a way to move up in the coming future.

edit: Just to emphasize, that's speculative and genuine curiosity, not trying to imply conclusions. I know almost nothing about Richmond or VCU, just a few quick reads and some quick browsing of basketball history.

To answer a couple of your questions.

1. Does Richmond have a bigger national audience? - I would think definitely not. Yes, A larger percentage of Richmond's alumni are from other areas, but consider their enrollment is just around 4,300+ versus VCU's 32,000+. VCU's out-of-state enrollment for Fall of 2011 (the last year I could find) was 4,654, which is larger than Richmond's entire student body. Outside of that, you tell me...how many casual college hoops fans do you think can name VCU's coach and style of play versus Richmond's? And I mean that with all due respect to Coach Mooney and his team, but Shaka Smart is one of the hottest names in the game right now, right there with Brad Stevens (and they've become a bit of a duo)...which I think is a real bonus you get with VCU. Add more recent success, and just success in general and I think VCU most certainly has a larger national audience, probably not even close.

2. Was VCU like this three season's ago? - For starters, VCU's 30+ game (I think it's at 31 now) sellout streak began several games before they went to the Final 4. But to be specific, three season's ago ('09-'10) VCU averaged 6,000 fans per game. Is that as good as it is now? Certainly not. But that's still 1,000 more fans than Richmond is averaging this season. And you have to understand...things change after a Final 4. People around Richmond are nuts about VCU after that Final 4. Also, for comparative purposes, Butler averaged just 6,599 fans last season...and that's after back-to-back National Championship appearances.

Also some things to consider, if this league is as tight as people think it's going to be, I don't see how a school with 1/12th of the control will somehow be able to screw that up (remember, VCU also doesn't have football while there are a number of C7 schools that do, as well as a school in Villanova who's flirted with the idea of jumping up to FBS).

There's also a lot of fuss made about institutional fit, but I'm of the opinion that the Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, etc...didn't see there schools effected in a negative way by playing their sports against the likes of UConn, Louisville, Pitt., West Virginia etc....and here's a perfect example: http://www.thehoya.com/mobile/news/appl ... -1.2746499 ....an article on Georgetown's record number of applications for the class of 2016, and that's AFTER the Big East not only was playing their ball with the schools I just mentioned, but had recently added the schools that made the C7 want to bounce in the first place.

[Jet915]

Not sure comparing VCU to UCONN, Louisville, Pitt and Syracuse is very accurate.

[Natty]

Not sure comparing VCU to UCONN, Louisville, Pitt and Syracuse is very accurate.

It's not accurate, because I didn't compare VCU to UConn, Louisville, Pitt and Syracuse........I compared them to, "UConn, Louisville, Pitt., West Virginia", in that they are all LARGE PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES.

If you actually read the post you would have understood the point I was making.

PS. Nice game tonight against Indiana St.

[Jet915]

You pretty much said that Georgetown doesn't mind playing institutions like UCONN, Louisville, Pitt and West Virginia so why would they mind play VCU. Yes, they are all public institutions, you forget the fact the UCONN, Louisville and Pitt are HUGE basketball programs with great histories whereas VCU is no where close to their stature.

P.S., nice games last week against Richmond and La Salle. Creighton shit the bed tonight no doubt but mentioning one game to further your point is kind of childish.

[yorost]

With national audience I'm not sure you answered my question. I know what you mean, but Marquette is a borderline national audience (more large regional imo), while Milwaukee is not. Both are D1 schools, and Milwaukee has 3 times as many students. I live in Atlanta and run into someone else wearing Marquette gear every now and then, but I've never seen Milwaukee gear outside Wisconsin. I think a big part of that is that Marquette is only around a third Wisconsinites, but Milwaukee apparently is 93% Wisconsinites. That feels like it could be similar to Richmond/VCU, I don't know, does it sound possible? That alumni exposure must be valuable in helping maintain a brand.

You're right that the recent success is a boon for VCU's national audience, but that might fade quickly if they don't follow it up a few times. I had zero recognition of VCU prior to the Final Four, that doesn't make me all of a sudden want to watch them. I think they're a few years of success away from being a more stable draw on tv. Not that Richmond is in a better situation.

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3 seasons ago was not meant to be literal, but a quick search for attendance figures showed VCU below 6,000 in recent years and Richmond above 7,000 in the not to distant past. Yes, obviously a Final Four is good for those figures, but it can also fade away. How do we know the fanatic attitude is hear to stay and not just temporary? I don't think anyone can know that. If Richmond regularly outperformed VCU in attendance over the last 20 years, of which I have no idea, it wouldn't shock me to see them retake that position in a few years. One Final Four doesn't guarantee the future.

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I don't get your point on Georgetown. Who is saying VCU vs a private school is going to hurt them? Of course all of the BE7 were thrilled to be associated with the public schools they were, they are all nationally recognized schools and having the mixed conference is a nice cross. Having a 1 public school in VCU will not be bad, certainly not for sports in any way, it's just about making the conference a stronger academic tie on top of being an athletic conference. There was no need with the Big East, now so many are similar and so many candidates are similar it makes some sense in forming an identity that extends past sports. Institutional fit stops there, it isn't that there will be a negative affect by adding a public university. It's would be nice and is possibly something even a public university could fit in to. If VCU were a clear cut favorite to make it, it wouldn't come in to play, in my opinion.

[thegalen]

What does concern me is that some VCU stompers have indicated Richmond's popularity pales in comparison to VCU in Richmond. How true is that over the last two decades?

Here's what's important to understand about Richmond and VCU- VCU is Richmond, and Richmond is VCU. In the 1990s Richmond was the murder capital of the US. Downtown was empty, crime-ridden, and a main artery for the i85/95 crack cocaine distribution networks that ran through Texas, Atlanta, Richmond, DC and up to New York. People left the city, fled to the burbs, etc. Today it's 100% the opposite. The city is thriving, and one of the main reasons is VCU. VCU is the biggest employer in the city, and expanded and rehabbed huge swathes of downtown, brought in money and put political pressure on the city to clean things up, and on and on. The Richmond Spiders of the 90s will never capture the heart of Richmond city the way they were able to during that run. For better or worse, VCU and the city are now one and the same. Add the Final Four run on top of that, plus Shaka, the style of play, and it's not even close.

[Edrick]

VCU vs Richmond within the Richmond market is irrelevant.

The conference is better off in the market. VCU is a public school and that's a non-starter. So, Richmond it is.

There will not be public schools in this conference. There's a whole bevy of advantages that you get when NO ONE in a league is public

[yorost]

Um, like what?

[SixTwentySix]

He's actually right, there are legal differences between an all private conference and one with public schools. I believe one is the Freedom of Information Act. An all private league basically is just that, private, and not subject to legally having to disclose information such as spending. Once you add a single public school the entire conference becomes subject to this.

I haven't researched this, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. If anyone has any further information on this please feel free to correct me. I know Ivy League follows some of these same guidelines though for being all private. I'm sure you can find the information somewhere online.

The real question is, are these differences significant enough to matter? And even if they are do the C7, who have always been part of public conference Big East anyway, sacrifice a public team for a few legal benefits?