Kneeling for the Anthem

[MullinMayhem]

Didn't want to post this on the main board, but I really think it's interesting to hear the points on both sides here. I personally think it's a disgrace that rich millionaires are talking about oppression. I understand that they will respond saying that it's not about them, it's about people without the stage and power they are speaking up for. Their entire protest is based on false narratives and a few isolated incidents that received a tremendous amount of media attention. I doubt most of the players kneeling even know what they are "protesting" anymore. This is what brought down the Occupy Wall Street movement. At this point, kneeling is planking and Tebowing. It's a fad without changing anything for the better and only for the worse. You will now see 8 year olds playing football and kneeling, because it's the "cool" thing to do. Do they know why? Nope. It's just cool to do, because other players in the NFL are now doing it. To act like Kaepernick is noble in this pursuit is ludicrous. He literally wore socks with pigs donning police hats. This is not MLK or Rosa Parks as many would want you to believe. And to add, MLK and Rosa Parks were noble and are respected today because they actually made legitimate points. What they did was simply right. It made sense. None of this protesting via kneeling makes any sense and it's not right (though I support their right to do it). There are some very real issues facing the inner-city communities and this solves none of it. It doesn't even get at the meat of the real issues like the shocking lack of fathers, the massive amounts of crime, and a culture that makes this normalized and even cool. Listen to hip hop lyrics. Watch the videos. Go visit worldstarhiphop.com. It's a cultural decay. But of course we cannot have conversations about this since it's still seen as taboo. If these millionaire players are so concerned about oppression, why not pool their resources and pour them into inner-cities all over America? I do give Kaepernick credit for at least putting his money where his mouth is after donating $1 million. That's still only breadcrumbs though relative to what he has. Most players won't put their money where their mouth is, since they prefer Bentleys and Lamborghinis. At the end of the day, it's about moral posturing. It's virtue-signalling. I am a good person, look at me kneeling! Look how down with the cause I am! That's what this is really about, even though the premise is completely false to begin with. Protesting is fine, but directing it at the national anthem essentially flipping off the flag is just unintelligent and makes no sense. We need more town hall discussions to give people voices on both sides to air grievances and make their points, not more division. There are certainly points to be made about police brutality and other issues, however you lose people sitting on the fence when you spit on our flag.

[Jet915]

Just my opinion but im a veteran and stand for the flag. This country isnt perfect by any means but it's still the greatest country in the world and not standing is disrespectful.

[ArmyVet]

Just my opinion but im a veteran and stand for the flag. This country isnt perfect by any means but it's still the greatest country in the world and not standing is disrespectful.

+1

[MUBoxer]

Just my opinion but im a veteran and stand for the flag. This country isnt perfect by any means but it's still the greatest country in the world and not standing is disrespectful.

Why is it disrespectful? In mass we take a knee during parts of mass that require special reverence. If you want to argue that the Steelers not coming out for the anthem is disrespectful then go ahead I’ll agree with you but it’s not like these players taking knees are jumping around screaming interrupting it, the knee itself is actually still a sign of respect but shows that there are things they don’t support.

First and foremost the pledge being said before class and the anthem being sang almost constantly along with the weird love of flags we have here is All a result of propaganda to promote patriotism during WWI. Now as a vet you can take the “my fellow brothers died for this flag...” trump card but understanding it in context of protest comes down to two questions A) are you a minority B) Were you raised in an urban setting that would have exposed you to the injustices that monorities face. If the answer is no to those two then of course as a vet you’re going to feel personally disrespected. It’s easy to think america is the greatest country in the world when it has been for you but thats not the case for everyone.

I agree with the original post that this has become way too popularized and is essentially a trend now. However, so has every massive protest in history. I know super conservative people that tell stories about how anti Vietnam they were and such. Why? Because it was trendy. That being said, it’s not fair to tell those protesting to essentially fix their own problems of urban decay and then we can focus on correcting the police department violence against minorities. There shouldn’t be a list it can all happen together.

[MullinMayhem]

By kneeling/putting fists in the air, it's clearly saying "we do not like our country". This movement lost many people because of it. Many, many people even conservatives will agree that there needs to be more done regarding police brutality. The problem comes when specific groups want to make it all about themselves instead of addressing the problem in general. Stats show us clearly that police brutality is not exclusive to one race. If you get into the kind of thinking such as "you are white, therefore your opinion is not allowed or valued" then you are just as bad as those you accuse of racism. Discounting someone's opinion because of the color of their skin is clear as day racism. We are all citizens of the USA. All opinions matter, that's what this country is about. You may not agree but everyone has a seat at the table. As someone who voted for Obama twice, I am utterly disgusted how radical the left has gotten. People are sick and tired of the identity politics. All it does is divide and blame one race for every problem ever in world history. It's ridiculous. We are also apparently now supposed to hold historical figures from the 15th century to 21st century morals. As brutal as some historical events were, the truth is they were not uncommon in their day in age. America and other western countries are said to be the only ones which engaged in brutal behavior. That's of course plain wrong...Moors invading Sicily anyone? Genghis Khan? Tribal warfare with Native Americans and Africans? In ancient times, everyone was doing things that would be considered reprehensible today including slavery. My point is, you can't just keep putting the microscope on one race/culture while letting all the others off the hook for the same thing. Double standards will only anger people more and lead to more division.

We all know what the real problems are and how to fix them. The issue is we are not allowed to say them because it's the 3rd rail thanks to liberals. The real problems are: hip hop culture (I myself enjoy the music itself but I do not live the lifestyle or engage in behavior the lyrics promote), no fathers around, families torn apart, violence (promoted by hip hop music), lack of delayed gratification, being a good student seen as being "soft", promiscuity encouraged (resulting in lots of out of wedlock births), and overall a lack of responsibility. If you research the effects of just one of these factors alone on a community, it's massively negative. For example, if you are a young boy raised by a single mother without any father figure, your chances of ending up in jail skyrocket. That's just one of the factors I mentioned...put all of them together and you have a recipe for disaster. These are the real causes, hate it or love it...it is what it is. You cannot solve problems until you are ready to confront the real issues. Again, police brutality is an issue across all races, but you lose people when you rant about how evil this country and one group of people are. You cannot alienate people then ask them for help.

[MUBoxer]

Again, what about kneeling is so offensive? I haven’t heard anybody freaking out that at Blackhawks games they scream through the whole anthem and that seems an awful lot more offensive. How exactly does it say we do not like our country? The protest is suppose to be attention grabbing and it has been. Protests would have never been effective if the whole goal was to be as quiet as possible.

As far as your theory about everybody having a say that’s not really true, especially when the majority is the side that hasn’t been brutalized. Let me put this in another context. I had severe Tourette syndrome growing up, I went to a small school that used to kick me out of class, suspend me or force me to run laps all day when my tics got bad. I don’t like teachers because of that. I know not all teachers are bad, I know many teachers have good intentions but after working camps I know that teachers caused a lot of trauma to kids with TS. Now do you have the right to chime in about how I should feel about teachers just because you’re in America? You don’t know me, my experience, what it’s like etc. so why should you be able to chime in? Now replace Tourette’s with being black and teachers with police. Not everybody gets a valid seat at the table and not should they.

I’m not sure what your point about comparing old morals is? Nobody is doing that, I mean we can all agree slavery is reprehensible, are you saying it wasn’t back then or what?

Your whole rap comment and such is stupid. By your own logic every kid who listens to metal should be a murderer, punk should be anarchists and country should be alcoholics. Sometimes music is just music.

You say we all know how to fix the problems but you offered no solution. I’m not sure where you got your police brutality stats and I’d like to see the source because some basic research yielded that stop and frisk is diproportionately done to Minorites and that while police shootings are roughly equal amongst races it was qualified that African males are 3x more likely to be unarmed when shot.

Do me a favor and break your response into a few more paragraphs it’s just easier to read.

[MullinMayhem]

Again, what about kneeling is so offensive? I haven’t heard anybody freaking out that at Blackhawks games they scream through the whole anthem and that seems an awful lot more offensive. How exactly does it say we do not like our country? The protest is suppose to be attention grabbing and it has been. Protests would have never been effective if the whole goal was to be as quiet as possible.

As far as your theory about everybody having a say that’s not really true, especially when the majority is the side that hasn’t been brutalized. Let me put this in another context. I had severe Tourette syndrome growing up, I went to a small school that used to kick me out of class, suspend me or force me to run laps all day when my tics got bad. I don’t like teachers because of that. I know not all teachers are bad, I know many teachers have good intentions but after working camps I know that teachers caused a lot of trauma to kids with TS. Now do you have the right to chime in about how I should feel about teachers just because you’re in America? You don’t know me, my experience, what it’s like etc. so why should you be able to chime in? Now replace Tourette’s with being black and teachers with police. Not everybody gets a valid seat at the table and not should they.

I’m not sure what your point about comparing old morals is? Nobody is doing that, I mean we can all agree slavery is reprehensible, are you saying it wasn’t back then or what?

Your whole rap comment and such is stupid. By your own logic every kid who listens to metal should be a murderer, punk should be anarchists and country should be alcoholics. Sometimes music is just music.

You say we all know how to fix the problems but you offered no solution. I’m not sure where you got your police brutality stats and I’d like to see the source because some basic research yielded that stop and frisk is diproportionately done to Minorites and that while police shootings are roughly equal amongst races it was qualified that African males are 3x more likely to be unarmed when shot.

Do me a favor and break your response into a few more paragraphs it’s just easier to read.

The side that "hasn't been brutalized"? It depends what you consider "brutalized". Does it mean my ancestors and those of my ethnic makeup were oppressed at one time and had atrocities committed against them? If that's the criteria then my group has been "brutalized". Historically, almost everyone can make a claim to that so it's not unique, terrible as it may be. There is no monopoly on historic atrocities. In fact, the largest lynching in US history was in New Orleans, I believe 1892 and the group lynched were Italians. Roosevelt was not President at the time but it's recorded in history that he said it was "a good thing" and supported it. Google it...I know many have not even heard of it. Now, in today's uber-sensitive world I could make the claim that my ancestors were oppressed and there is anti-Italian sentiment that runs deep in the veins of America. Hey, even a guy who became President supported the lynching. Why am I not out in the streets protesting and shrieking? Because I understand things are nuanced and it was a different time. Totally different morals. It doesn't mean you don't care, it just means you contextualize it. There is no context these days. The problem this presents is: how far do you want to go back? Everyone is a victim by the standards set today. Google the Barbary Wars. Terrible things happened to every group and in every country. To act like America is unique in its brutal history is just ignorant.

The argument "you don't know me or my experiences" isn't really an argument. It's a shame you went through that and hopefully you realized all teachers aren't like that. But think about it, you can use that "argument" for anything. Robbed that store? Why are you arresting me? You don't know my struggle! It can be fired right back...I may not be in the shoes of some people complaining, but they aren't in my shoes either...so what's the point? Again, everyone is entitled to an opinion. As for the hip hop vs. rock, etc. I would argue that hip hop culture is the most mainstream dominant culture among the youth today but especially in the inner-cities which is the epicenter. HS or college parties I'd say 95% of the time have hip hop music in the background. There's a difference between just liking the music and living out the culture. This is why you can't say lots of kids in the burbs seem to do ok and they listen to it. They only listen to the music, they don't live out the lifestyle. In inner-cities it's a vicious cycle of crime, children out of wedlock, poverty, violence, gangs, drugs, etc. all reinforced as being "hard" or cool in inner-cities. Do you listen to some of the lyrics? I know a lot about hip hop music and I can provide endless lyrics that clearly legitimize and praise this behavior. There is no shame. Shame is very powerful. When you take the shame of these behaviors away and legitimize it and make it part of the inner-city culture, this is unfortunately what happens. Rock songs don't have this message, let's be real. I'm sure you can find some crazy lyrics in a few, but it's not a dominant culture and it's not nearly as popular. Apologies if the paragraphs were too long.

[billyjack]

Free recommendation for Mullin Mayhem, and i'm absolutely serious about this here:
- Tell your boss that you're taking tomorrow off.
- Invite your girlfriend over tonight.
- On the way home, pick up some Sicilian bread, thin-sliced prosciutto, and honeydew melon.
-Grab some light pastry dessert that involves whipped cream.
- Turn off your cellphone til Tuesday morning for work.
- Rent a movie or two from Netflix... something lighthearted, maybe with DiCaprio or Pitt, or maybe Hugh Grant... or how bout that movie with James Krasinski and Mandy Moore where they're getting married.
- Lay on the couch with your girlfriend, both of you in various states of undress.
- You take it from there brother.
- You're welcome.

[MullinMayhem]

Free recommendation for Mullin Mayhem, and i'm absolutely serious about this here:
- Tell your boss that you're taking tomorrow off.
- Invite your girlfriend over tonight.
- On the way home, pick up some Sicilian bread, thin-sliced prosciutto, and honeydew melon.
-Grab some light pastry dessert that involves whipped cream.
- Turn off your cellphone til Tuesday morning for work.
- Rent a movie or two from Netflix... something lighthearted, maybe with DiCaprio or Pitt, or maybe Hugh Grant... or how bout that movie with James Krasinski and Mandy Moore where they're getting married.
- Lay on the couch with your girlfriend, both of you in various states of undress.
- You take it from there brother.
- You're welcome.

My points remain.

[MUBoxer]

The side that "hasn't been brutalized"? It depends what you consider "brutalized". Does it mean my ancestors and those of my ethnic makeup were oppressed at one time and had atrocities committed against them? If that's the criteria then my group has been "brutalized". Historically, almost everyone can make a claim to that so it's not unique, terrible as it may be. There is no monopoly on historic atrocities. In fact, the largest lynching in US history was in New Orleans, I believe 1892 and the group lynched were Italians. Roosevelt was not President at the time but it's recorded in history that he said it was "a good thing" and supported it. Google it...I know many have not even heard of it. Now, in today's uber-sensitive world I could make the claim that my ancestors were oppressed and there is anti-Italian sentiment that runs deep in the veins of America. Hey, even a guy who became President supported the lynching. Why am I not out in the streets protesting and shrieking? Because I understand things are nuanced and it was a different time. Totally different morals. It doesn't mean you don't care, it just means you contextualize it. There is no context these days. The problem this presents is: how far do you want to go back? Everyone is a victim by the standards set today. Google the Barbary Wars. Terrible things happened to every group and in every country. To act like America is unique in its brutal history is just ignorant.

The argument "you don't know me or my experiences" isn't really an argument. It's a shame you went through that and hopefully you realized all teachers aren't like that. But think about it, you can use that "argument" for anything. Robbed that store? Why are you arresting me? You don't know my struggle! It can be fired right back...I may not be in the shoes of some people complaining, but they aren't in my shoes either...so what's the point? Again, everyone is entitled to an opinion. As for the hip hop vs. rock, etc. I would argue that hip hop culture is the most mainstream dominant culture among the youth today but especially in the inner-cities which is the epicenter. HS or college parties I'd say 95% of the time have hip hop music in the background. There's a difference between just liking the music and living out the culture. This is why you can't say lots of kids in the burbs seem to do ok and they listen to it. They only listen to the music, they don't live out the lifestyle. In inner-cities it's a vicious cycle of crime, children out of wedlock, poverty, violence, gangs, drugs, etc. all reinforced as being "hard" or cool in inner-cities. Do you listen to some of the lyrics? I know a lot about hip hop music and I can provide endless lyrics that clearly legitimize and praise this behavior. There is no shame. Shame is very powerful. When you take the shame of these behaviors away and legitimize it and make it part of the inner-city culture, this is unfortunately what happens. Rock songs don't have this message, let's be real. I'm sure you can find some crazy lyrics in a few, but it's not a dominant culture and it's not nearly as popular. Apologies if the paragraphs were too long.

No your ancesestors don't count. I'm sorry but how long has your family been in America? I don't know you, care to or anything but one of two situations is about to surface either you're like me and first generation (maybe second?) and you shouldn't be talking about your ancestors issues in america anyways. Or your family was here in which case you weren't at the bottom of the tottem pole at all and while that lynching was awful the italians were placed above the Irish, all east asian ethnicities, hispanics and african americans in the least.

Now moving back toward things that didn't happen over100yrs ago, being brutalized by the police and the rest of society isn't something that needs to be written about in history books because there's still marches to this day. Meanwhile you as an italian have what? To deal with cheesey pasta sauce brands and pizza knock offs?

As far as my personal example, I know not all teachers are like that and I'm sure african americans know not all cops are like that but if there was a protest against close minded teachers I'd partake just like anyone kneeling against bad cops. the main issue with your rebuttal is that kneeling during the anthem isn't an illegal act. The bottom line is if your haven't walked in someone else's shoes you're just making brash statements like about how inner cities work. No they don't know your shoes but last I checked those kneeling aren't sitting on their computers b*tching about you not protesting in fact I believe quite a few have said they respect and understand those that don't. So when you ask "what's the point?" you should probably think to yourself what the difference is between your judgement and their non judgement.

I'm not even going to get into this hip hop argument anymore.

Because:
A) The modern sociological trend is showing more money is going into the inner city and poverty stricken neighborhoods are actually moving out to the outer city and blue collar suburbs so you may as well say african american neighborhoods

B) I grew up in the inner city of chicago, went to Chicago Public Schools till I was a sophomore in HS and I doubt I'm the demographic you're getting at so you're either making assumptions from a fancy suburb you've lived 90% of your life in or

C) Your assumptions show you aren't familiar with discriminatory housing policies that existed even into the 90s. Housing value directly correlates to how good a school is, if housing values are crappy the school will be crappy, if the school is crappy you run into people wondering what's the point when they can make money right away instead. Then your run into impressionable drop outs looking for acceptance... say from a local gang. Then you get the music, it wasn't a situation where someone started rapping and suddenly everybody because hard gang members the moment rap came out.