Rank the 12 schools in value to the new league

[ssfriarfan]

This thread can't possibly end well. We're measuring phallus size here.

Having said that, PC has 2 FF's and 2 E8's.

And no one under 40 knows who the Friars are. But they all know Gonzaga. And they all know McDermott. Providence is riding coattails and everyone knows it.

Providence is a top 40 market on its own never mind the fact that it will be the only team from New England in the new conference. Important region to have a footprint in for many reasons. To say nothing of the history or the fact that they had a top recruiting class come in this year and another one on the way next season. When this conference starts there is a very good chance we will be a favorite to win the League.

[ssfriarfan]

Positioned for Long-Term Success (based on quality of local talent field, size & strength of the fan base, and their name brand)
1. Georgetown
2. Villanova
3. St. John's
4. Seton Hall
5. DePaul
6. Xavier
7. Dayton
8. Butler
9. VCU
10. Marquette
11. St. Louis
12. Creighton
13. Providence
14. Richmond

St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul are in such talent-laden recruiting fields, their failures on the hardwood are as much to do with the failures of their coaching staffs as anything. Put Butler's success at either of those 3 schools and their stock would go through the rough with local recruits and the media.

I tend to put more value on hardwood performance than market size, simply b/c a team that wins will attract teams. Oregon (in football) is proof of that. Duke (in basketball) is also. Being in a talent-rich recruiting field is key IMO. If you look at NBA players by state of birth, you see that NY, NJ, IL, and IN are very high. I'd like to use NBA players by State they played HS ball in, but that measure isn't available.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fri ... places.cgi

Providence at #13 is a joke when its going to be 12 teams....Not to mention very hypocritical as it flies in the face of your reasoning. The Friars have the same fertile recruiting ground as the top 4 on your list. You sound like a bitter UConn or BC fan.

[Xudash]

I finally took a little time to glance at some of the responses here. It's no surprise that the thought process that went into some of these "rankings" is....varied.

We have some people focused on expenditures for hoops. That actually would be a reasonable criterion if it weren't for the fact that some of these schools pay NBA arena rents while others own their own on-campus facilities. If you want to rely on expense budgets, it probably would be better to find a way to "true them up", which would be hard to do anyway, given the likelihood that accounting treatments differ somewhat from school to school.

Others seem to presume that the top of the existing B7 will remain at the top of the new B7+. That's not an entirely bad assumption, but it also is far from automatic. In fact, just considering OOC performance and NCAA Tournament success, it can't be a surprise to anyone that Xavier and Butler are considered to be automatic for this gig.

My criteria for determining who brings value to the league? My primary driver is focused on administrative support, coupled with administrate talent, especially in the area of hiring quality people: AD's, coaches, etc. Commitment and talent and the resources invested via that commitment tend to ultimately generate lots of money.

So, looking out from now and pondering the question, cash flow generation is key, because cash flow generation that is sustainable, and is in fact sustained over a long period means that a program is delivering in virtually every regard towards the success of the conference. Money - (free) cash flow - directly helps to determine which programs are best positioned to generate success and value to the conference on a sustainable basis. Obviously, if a program is generating a lot of money, it is successful, and it probably is successful in a number of areas: gate receipts (season tickets, walk-up, seat licensing, suites, etc.), NCAA appearances, and brand loyalty (i.e. crank up the cash register in the book store, etc.). TV money would come into play here if tier rights are involved (e.g. Xavier with its FoxSports-Ohio package; the non-Tier 1 stuff).

Xavier is ranked 17th on Forbes' list of the most valuable college basketball programs. It is joined by only Duke and Syracuse as the two other private schools to make the list. It is only 1 of 2 non-BCS schools to make the list (UNLV being the other). I tend to look at all this using a business lens, so positioning like that actually means something to me.

The Cintas Center has a capacity of 10,250; capacity utilization has been in the high 90's (%) since the place opened in 2000. X's most recent attendance rank (NCAA) was 39, putting it in company with schools like Florida and Villanova. But it's doing that with 22 private suites, the Josephs Club and seat licensing. The place is set up to be a cash register for Xavier, and it has been just that through Xavier's on court success. When it comes to basketball and the ability to win (rough this year, given all the crap that happened to the program from mostly last season and summer) X couldn't be in a better position, especially with an alumnus at the helm who is talented and most likely committed to sticking around on Victory Parkway for a while.

Other sports? Xavier's women's hoops team has been down for a few years now, but is rebuilding under an alumnae who should bring it back to its NCAA Tournament performance level. Men's/Women's golf just moved into a 7-digit state-of-the-art private (Xavier) golf facility at a private club in Cincinnati - the men's team being a recent NCAA tournament squad with two alumni on the PGA Tour now. Each team just snared the #1 ranked players in Ohio, doing so at the expense of Ohio State and a number of other mostly B1G schools. Men's baseball is making the NCAA tournament. Men's soccer has exploded, making the NCAA tournament. Men's tennis is strong, too. Maybe I'm forgetting a sport, but the success coupled with strong administrative support and the ability to attract talented coaches, etc. has brought all this about. Xavier athletics a decade ago? Men's and women's hoops and rifle and that was probably about it.

Value to the new league? It's primarily a question focused on men's hoops, but it should be a little more holistic: other sports, and even the shine the institution itself brings to the league.

Oh, and as for recruiting, Xavier's Mack just landed a 4-Star from Texas and another 4-Star from California. The brand is strong enough to draw like that, even though Ohio and the surrounding states are sufficiently fertile recruiting ground, with a rather remarkable concentration of competition.

I'll give the top spot to Georgetown, due mainly to overall brand recognition and the Hoyas' financial resources, but Xavier comes in at #2 on my book, followed by Villanova and Marquette in a tie:

Georgetown
Xavier
Marquette / Villanova.

St. Johns and Butler

St. Louis, Providence and Creighton.

Richmond
Seton Hall
DePaul

Butler ends up lower on my list for a very specific reason: I'm weary of their fan support, especially given the amount of recent success in the Tournament. That could have everything to do with coming from a crappy Horizon League (via the A10), but, if I understand their renovation strategy correctly, they're considering taking the capacity of Hinkle down to 8.5k. 8.5k isn't bad, per se, but it also isn't 10k+.

Final point: endowment. On paper and in present actuality, I would consider this area Xavier's Achilles' heal. However, Xavier has been raising and continues to raise lots of money. It has done so to the tune of a quarter of a billion dollars in capital projects over the last decade. The next capital campaign to soon come on line (silent period) will be in the $300 million range and the vast majority of that will be tagged for the endowment. The major $150 million project busting loose this year will be a private-finance/long-lease deal that will transform a bunch of dirt on the eastern edge of campus.

The institution and the basketball program are moving firmly in a positive direction for the foreseeable future.

And I've officially spent way too much time in this thread. That is all.

[Eight Legger]

Did somebody say endowment? Let's rank the C7 and rumored additions by that metric. Those of us from UR would like that list.

[Xudash]

Roger that 8L.

[James]

Everyone's going to rank these based on their own preferences and bias. For instance, a Creighton fan would feel attendance is a big deal, a SJU fan would say market size while a Marquette fan would side with recent form.

At the end of the day each team is going to be just as valuable to other when this league starts up - DePaul and Providence should have just as much opportunity and potential as Nova and Georgetown in this new conference and that's what makes it fresh and exciting.

Can't wait

[yorost]

I'm curious, why do you think a Marquette fan would point to recent success?

[James]

Marquette have been one of the league's more successful teams these past 10 years have they not? Final Four, multiple NCAA bids, High finishes in the Big East.

Sub Marquette for Buter, Gonzaga, Georgetown. It doesn't matter - my point was more about the nature and objectivity of some fans.

[yorost]

I get that recent success is good for us, but if we want to promote our school within the club, history and attendance might be equal or better angles.

[James]

I'm aware that Marquette has plenty going for it - to be honest, Im trying to point to the fact that we have 10 pages of fans of different teams pointing to why their team is more valuable than this team or that team. We all like to think or own team brings more to the table than others, it's the nature of fans.