Geography & Expansion: When Creighton was invited...

[muskienick]

In order to see both Spokane & New York on the map at the same time requires zoom that also works for showing New York and Portugal.

False equivalency is false.

It's the 21st century, the global village. Travel time is what matters, not distance.

And it's also a matter of the travel $. Will we simply have Conference Championship Tourneys for the "Olympic" i.e.non-revenue sports rather than a regular Conference season schedule of games among all members? Transporting volleyball, golf, baseball, softball, tennis, etc. teams back and forth between the current 10 and Spokane would eat quickly away at the cash that basketball brings to the Big East through the Fox contract and the NCAA Tourney units we've earned so far!

[Hall2012]

If you were to draw a line down the middle of the continental US, at least Omaha is still on the eastern half. I actually think this thread creates a better case for adding Saint Louis, as it would help bridge the gap between Marquette/DePaul and Creighton

TBH, I don't understand the idea of "bridging the gap" in the era of air travel. You go up, you come down. You don't pass through any place along the way. The only question is how long you stay up. Besides, if you draw a line from Chicago/Milwaukee to Omaha, you won't find St Louis anywhere close to it.

Well the other question is money. Shorter flights are cheaper and it gives Creighton a new shortest flight/nearest neighbor. As opposed to Gonzaga which is roughly the equivalent for them of flying to the east coast. Again, I'm not in favor of expansion at all, but I do think that should we expand, location matters.

The bigger benefit (which could include Creighton but is really more for DePaul, Marquette, Butler, and Xavier) is travel for Olympic sports. I'm not gonna pretend to know the travel policies of every school, but I'm going to assume they don't all fly everywhere. The number I'm going to use is 350 miles- which is the NCAA's cutoff for determining whether to fly or bus teams to NCAA Tournament sites. Anyone within 350 miles takes a bus. Marquette falls outside of that range by about 20 miles, but the other 3 all fall inside of it. Since no other Big East sport plays a double round robin, that very well could mean they get to replace flying the swimming and diving team to the east coast with bussing them to St. Louis.

[sciencejay]

Gonzaga is an unrealistic unicorn. It went from a fun thought exercise to the most annoying thing on this board. Gonzaga is never going to be in the Big East. Ever.

Just stop.

Duquense is more likely.

Edrick: do you have actual, valid information that BE presidents and FOX Sports have no interest in Gonzaga? Or are these absolutist statements merely your opinion (clearly not humble opinion)? What needs to stop is your belittling others' opinions about why/why not Gonzaga may be a good addition to the conference. We all get that you don't think the conference should or will add Gonzaga. You've said it several times in multiple strings. No one is unclear about your opinion. Yet it is just your opinion. Message boards exist for people with a common interest to discuss their opinions. When you get bossy and condescending to everyone else, it becomes boorish.

Independent of that, I think an important consideration hasn't been discussed. Adding Gonzaga isn't just about the number of alums that would tune in because they want to watch Gonzaga. Adding Gonzaga would increase the overall quality of the league and therefore league games. That would absolutely increase the value of our TV contract. The more games between Top 10/25 teams, the more casual fan interest that would be generated, and that is worth money to networks.

Think about the Big East in the 80s. Now we can all agree that was a special time and there was a confluence of a new, sports-only network (which shall remain nameless), an increase in the popularity of college basketball, and a conference with many great/top teams in it that were on TV all the time. I grew up in WY, but it didn't matter that I had no connection to SJ, GT, Nova, Cuse, etc. It was great basketball on TV, and I was a kid who loved playing and watching basketball. I was sucked in. In the present scenario, we have a very good product to show on TV. I don't see how having Gonzaga in the mix doesn't improve our product overall. There would be more 'premier' matchups that FOX could put in primetime on FS1 during the week or put on Big FOX on the weekends. To me, this makes up for the added distance because it would provide the opportunity to increase the number of casual fans. How many non-affiliated fans do UNC, KU, UK and Duke have? Tons. Because they are great teams and they are on TV a lot playing against other top teams. People want to see great basketball. Adding Gonzaga would add to the quality of the Big East product.

And with regard to the distance and travel costs, it's not just the TV contract, but also tourney credits that generate revenue. Someone can correct me, but isn't a credit worth $262K? That sure covers a ton of travel in a given season. Gonzaga would add to our tourney credit haul each season (and yes, I'm hoping the Jays can make a significant contribution in the near future).

Finally, in addition to Men's/Women's bball, volleyball also plays a double round robin. I don't believe that any of the other sports do.

[Bill Marsh]

In order to see both Spokane & New York on the map at the same time requires zoom that also works for showing New York and Portugal.

False equivalency is false.

It's the 21st century, the global village. Travel time is what matters, not distance.

You keep saying the same thing and every time it is equally false. The time required for basketball teams chartering flights isn't the issue. Big East schools sponsor between 13 (Creighton) and 22 (Georgetown) teams, the average being just under 18. MOST of these teams use commercial air and buses. We do all understand that athletic departments have to support entire athletic departments, right?

Gonzaga is an unrealistic unicorn. It went from a fun thought exercise to the most annoying thing on this board. Gonzaga is never going to be in the Big East. Ever.

Just stop.

Duquense is more likely.

Please ratchet down your tone a little. Especially when you're wrong. This is a message board on which people post opinions. If you don't like someone's opinion, ignore it. If you're annoyed, you're the one responsible for that because you make the choice to read a thread you're not interested in. Moreover, I see plenty of unrealistic opinions posted here. Like UConn rejoining the Big East. It's not happening. Period. But I guess you're okay with that one.

What you're wrong about is your position that transportation is needed for 13-22 teams. Not true. And the correct information has been posted here about this numerous times. Most sports hold their conference competition in an all conference meet or tournament held at one location. They do NOT compete against other conference members on a regular schedule of events during the season like basketball does. You seem to be unaware of this inconvenient fact.

I'm not going to post this stuff yet one more time because you can do what I did. Look at the sports that Gonzaga competes in. Look at how the Big East schedules those sports. What you'll find is that there are only 4 sports including basketball which schools would have to send a team to Spokane every year and a 5th that would have to travel there some years but not annually. It's not nearly the hardship you make it out to be.

If you look back at my opening post, you'll see that my point was to explore the possibility that Gonzaga and VCU might join the AAC in addition to Wichita State. I then asked what the Big East's response to that should be. Maybe you could address the issue of a competitor conference beefing up and getting stronger instead of attacking me for making perfectly innocent posts. Maybe you could start some fascinating threads so people would become absorbed with them instead of with expansion issues.

[NJRedman]

Gonzaga is an unrealistic unicorn. It went from a fun thought exercise to the most annoying thing on this board. Gonzaga is never going to be in the Big East. Ever.

Just stop.

Duquense is more likely.

Edrick: do you have actual, valid information that BE presidents and FOX Sports have no interest in Gonzaga? Or are these absolutist statements merely your opinion (clearly not humble opinion)? What needs to stop is your belittling others' opinions about why/why not Gonzaga may be a good addition to the conference. We all get that you don't think the conference should or will add Gonzaga. You've said it several times in multiple strings. No one is unclear about your opinion. Yet it is just your opinion. Message boards exist for people with a common interest to discuss their opinions. When you get bossy and condescending to everyone else, it becomes boorish.

Independent of that, I think an important consideration hasn't been discussed. Adding Gonzaga isn't just about the number of alums that would tune in because they want to watch Gonzaga. Adding Gonzaga would increase the overall quality of the league and therefore league games. That would absolutely increase the value of our TV contract. The more games between Top 10/25 teams, the more casual fan interest that would be generated, and that is worth money to networks.

Think about the Big East in the 80s. Now we can all agree that was a special time and there was a confluence of a new, sports-only network (which shall remain nameless), an increase in the popularity of college basketball, and a conference with many great/top teams in it that were on TV all the time. I grew up in WY, but it didn't matter that I had no connection to SJ, GT, Nova, Cuse, etc. It was great basketball on TV, and I was a kid who loved playing and watching basketball. I was sucked in. In the present scenario, we have a very good product to show on TV. I don't see how having Gonzaga in the mix doesn't improve our product overall. There would be more 'premier' matchups that FOX could put in primetime on FS1 during the week or put on Big FOX on the weekends. To me, this makes up for the added distance because it would provide the opportunity to increase the number of casual fans. How many non-affiliated fans do UNC, KU, UK and Duke have? Tons. Because they are great teams and they are on TV a lot playing against other top teams. People want to see great basketball. Adding Gonzaga would add to the quality of the Big East product.

And with regard to the distance and travel costs, it's not just the TV contract, but also tourney credits that generate revenue. Someone can correct me, but isn't a credit worth $262K? That sure covers a ton of travel in a given season. Gonzaga would add to our tourney credit haul each season (and yes, I'm hoping the Jays can make a significant contribution in the near future).

Finally, in addition to Men's/Women's bball, volleyball also plays a double round robin. I don't believe that any of the other sports do.

But they are only valuable while they are good. That isn't a good premise for adding a team. Any team who has a run like the Zags will bring that. What happens if they stop being good? That happens to the best of programs and Gonzaga isn't excluded from that. We have an albatross around our necks in the Pacific North West.

[Bill Marsh]

All this talk about travel time is great but we're forgetting a pretty key piece and that's time difference. Gonzaga is what 3(?) hours behind the east coast schools that'd mean that in order to hit the 7 PM start time a lot of the games have it'd be 4 out west when a lot of the students are still in class and locals are still at work so then Gonzaga complains about that advantage so we'd push the games back to work for them and suddenly our teams are playing at what feels like 10pm to them but is 7 to the zags and our coaches start complaining.

That's just the issue with the teams, add on the hit the actual viewership would take because of weird game times and it becomes even less feasible.

What's with the 7:00 start time on the East Coast? I watch as many Big East games as I can. I've watched plenty of games that start at 8:00 and 9:00. The second game of a Big East double header is normally 9:00 or 9:30. For years, I attended college basketball double headers in the Garden, which are now a thing of the past. Start time was always 9:00 for the second game. And that's with a commute to follow, not a stroll from the TV to the bedroom.

As for Gonzaga, all but one of their conference week night games at home started at 6:00. That's their normal start time already. A 6:00 game in Spokane would broadcast at 9:00 on the East Coast. I have no idea how that could possibly be a problem for anyone. The one exception to the 6:00 start was 7:00, or 10:00 East Coast time, 9:00 Central. Again, doesn't seem like a big problem to me - especially if that opponent is a school from the Central time zone.

You can find their schedule with start times on their men's basketball Wikipedia page.

[Edrick]

I am sorry if you feel belittled for believing in what amounts to the Easter Bunny (SPOILERS!!!)

This board has mostly been unreadable, more or less from its inception, because of the pointless speculation of an expansion that isn't going to happen.

It was one thing when it was Dayton -- something actually feasible. This thing with Gonzaga is just idiotic. The community college in your town, where ever you may live, has a greater likelihood of gaining admittance into the Big East. And that's even allowing for expansion happening at all, which it almost certainly won't within the decade.

[sciencejay]

Gonzaga is an unrealistic unicorn. It went from a fun thought exercise to the most annoying thing on this board. Gonzaga is never going to be in the Big East. Ever.

Just stop.

Duquense is more likely.

Edrick: do you have actual, valid information that BE presidents and FOX Sports have no interest in Gonzaga? Or are these absolutist statements merely your opinion (clearly not humble opinion)? What needs to stop is your belittling others' opinions about why/why not Gonzaga may be a good addition to the conference. We all get that you don't think the conference should or will add Gonzaga. You've said it several times in multiple strings. No one is unclear about your opinion. Yet it is just your opinion. Message boards exist for people with a common interest to discuss their opinions. When you get bossy and condescending to everyone else, it becomes boorish.

Independent of that, I think an important consideration hasn't been discussed. Adding Gonzaga isn't just about the number of alums that would tune in because they want to watch Gonzaga. Adding Gonzaga would increase the overall quality of the league and therefore league games. That would absolutely increase the value of our TV contract. The more games between Top 10/25 teams, the more casual fan interest that would be generated, and that is worth money to networks.

Think about the Big East in the 80s. Now we can all agree that was a special time and there was a confluence of a new, sports-only network (which shall remain nameless), an increase in the popularity of college basketball, and a conference with many great/top teams in it that were on TV all the time. I grew up in WY, but it didn't matter that I had no connection to SJ, GT, Nova, Cuse, etc. It was great basketball on TV, and I was a kid who loved playing and watching basketball. I was sucked in. In the present scenario, we have a very good product to show on TV. I don't see how having Gonzaga in the mix doesn't improve our product overall. There would be more 'premier' matchups that FOX could put in primetime on FS1 during the week or put on Big FOX on the weekends. To me, this makes up for the added distance because it would provide the opportunity to increase the number of casual fans. How many non-affiliated fans do UNC, KU, UK and Duke have? Tons. Because they are great teams and they are on TV a lot playing against other top teams. People want to see great basketball. Adding Gonzaga would add to the quality of the Big East product.

And with regard to the distance and travel costs, it's not just the TV contract, but also tourney credits that generate revenue. Someone can correct me, but isn't a credit worth $262K? That sure covers a ton of travel in a given season. Gonzaga would add to our tourney credit haul each season (and yes, I'm hoping the Jays can make a significant contribution in the near future).

Finally, in addition to Men's/Women's bball, volleyball also plays a double round robin. I don't believe that any of the other sports do.

But they are only valuable while they are good. That isn't a good premise for adding a team. Any team who has a run like the Zags will bring that. What happens if they stop being good? That happens to the best of programs and Gonzaga isn't excluded from that. We have an albatross around our necks in the Pacific North West.

I feel like this is a straw man put in place to add an argument against Gonzaga. I don't dispute that it's possible that they won't have a downturn, but isn't the proabability extremely high that Gonzaga will remain good--and by 'good' I mean consistently in the top 20? There are simply no guarantees that any team will remain at its current (high) level. Take Nova: heaven forbid, but what if JW left coaching immediately (due to health issue, family matters, or whatever--extremely unlikely yes, but possible)? What's the guarantee that his replacement would keep Nova in the upper echelon of the sport? There is none. He's gone, and the new HC has a different system and just doesn't quite click with the current players and recruits. Then maybe a top current player transfers and a top recruit or two change their commitments. Then Nova is in a completely different position to provide 'value' to the conference and any TV contract. Again, not likely, but possible. He isn't a spring chicken, and bad stuff can happen to good people through no fault of their own, healthwise--he is 55 after all. (Parenthetically, I hope none of this comes true. I'm just trying to make a point.)

Back to the Zags. They have a 53 year old coach who has that program competing at the highest levels nationally. Few is an avid fisherman and in many interviews pre/post game over the past several years, his love of fishing and living in Spokane have come up. By all accounts, he couldn't be happier in his situation. He's had offers to leave for 'bigger' programs, and he's turned them down. There have been no rumors that he's getting tired of coaching and is planning to retire soon. Let's say he coaches another 12 years (to 65) before retiring and keeps the Zags as a premier (consistently top 20) program during that time. That puts the BEast well into the next TV contract, so it seems to me that it would be valuable to all conference members if they were invited.

I personally think that a conference of 12-14 teams is simply stronger year to year than one with only 10 schools. Don't get me wrong. I love the double round robin (throwback to the old MVC days). All programs have their ups and downs, so with more teams, you have more chances to have 3-6 teams who are very good and capable of challenging for the throne every year. It may not be the same schools, but year in, year out, you have a significant presence at the top of the polls and (hopefully) late in the tourney. The ACC is a great example. Every year it's Duke, UNC and 'a few others' like Louisville, UVA and so on. Gonzaga is a like-minded, basketball-first school. Many posters have commented that in the modern era, long distance travel isn't as significant as it once was. Yes the extra time zones will require adjustment, just like the additional travel. But the BEast would be a stronger conference going forward if the Zags were in the fold. My three cents.


THERE'S NO EASTER BUNNY????? WWWHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTT???????

[Savannah Jay]

Gonna sound like a bit of a defensive homer, but here goes...

Doug McDermott was fantastic exposure for Creighton but anyone who thinks CU was invited to the Big East "because of Doug" is doing a disservice to the business-savviness of C7 presidents. First, when CU was invited, Doug hadn't even decided whether he was coming back for his senior year yet so the presidents had no idea if they would get the "first team all-American" exposure when the invite was extended. What's more, you don't make an important, permanent business decision based on a factor that will only be present for one year. That would be stupid.

I believe Creighton was invited because it's a like-minded basketball centric school that has shown a true commitment to the sports it sponsors. I believe, and welcome any discussion, that Creighton has the best portfolio of facilities of any school in the Big East and that portfolio underscores Creighton's commitment to athletics. NBA-caliber arena. One of the best, if not the best, collegiate soccer stadiums in the country. Women's basketball and volleyball have their own, beautiful (relatively new) arena. A new baseball stadium that is host to the College World Series every year (with Creighton being the host school...every year). And our championship center was under construction. It's not as big as GTown's but it's certainly a facility that's on par with some of the best in the conference. The 17,500 fans that show up every night doesn't hurt, nor does CU's history of selling out it's conference tournament allotment of tix. But facilities are a true test of commitment to athletics. Anyone can write a check for a coach's salary for a given period if that coach is winning and the alumni will pony up in the short run. But alumni (and city) ponying up to build the kind of facilities that Creighton has is a much more meaningful investment.

Again, apologies for the homerism but I am kinda tired of reading that we got invited to the Big East because of Doug. Doug decided to come back after he found he we got invited to the Big East (among other reasons...).

[NJRedman]

I feel like this is a straw man put in place to add an argument against Gonzaga. I don't dispute that it's possible that they won't have a downturn, but isn't the proabability extremely high that Gonzaga will remain good--and by 'good' I mean consistently in the top 20? There are simply no guarantees that any team will remain at its current (high) level. Take Nova: heaven forbid, but what if JW left coaching immediately (due to health issue, family matters, or whatever--extremely unlikely yes, but possible)? What's the guarantee that his replacement would keep Nova in the upper echelon of the sport? There is none. He's gone, and the new HC has a different system and just doesn't quite click with the current players and recruits. Then maybe a top current player transfers and a top recruit or two change their commitments. Then Nova is in a completely different position to provide 'value' to the conference and any TV contract. Again, not likely, but possible. He isn't a spring chicken, and bad stuff can happen to good people through no fault of their own, healthwise--he is 55 after all. (Parenthetically, I hope none of this comes true. I'm just trying to make a point.)

Back to the Zags. They have a 53 year old coach who has that program competing at the highest levels nationally. Few is an avid fisherman and in many interviews pre/post game over the past several years, his love of fishing and living in Spokane have come up. By all accounts, he couldn't be happier in his situation. He's had offers to leave for 'bigger' programs, and he's turned them down. There have been no rumors that he's getting tired of coaching and is planning to retire soon. Let's say he coaches another 12 years (to 65) before retiring and keeps the Zags as a premier (consistently top 20) program during that time. That puts the BEast well into the next TV contract, so it seems to me that it would be valuable to all conference members if they were invited.

I personally think that a conference of 12-14 teams is simply stronger year to year than one with only 10 schools. Don't get me wrong. I love the double round robin (throwback to the old MVC days). All programs have their ups and downs, so with more teams, you have more chances to have 3-6 teams who are very good and capable of challenging for the throne every year. It may not be the same schools, but year in, year out, you have a significant presence at the top of the polls and (hopefully) late in the tourney. The ACC is a great example. Every year it's Duke, UNC and 'a few others' like Louisville, UVA and so on. Gonzaga is a like-minded, basketball-first school. Many posters have commented that in the modern era, long distance travel isn't as significant as it once was. Yes the extra time zones will require adjustment, just like the additional travel. But the BEast would be a stronger conference going forward if the Zags were in the fold. My three cents.


THERE'S NO EASTER BUNNY????? WWWHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTT???????

Yeah, it's no strawman. Expecting them to automatically be a top 20 team jumping into the Big East playing half it's conference games at least 2 time zones away is beyond optimistic.

The reason it's a bigger deal for them is because they aren't in a big market, aren't in a fertile recruiting ground and aren't even close to being a geographic fit.

All the arguments for Gonzaga are about them staying as good as they are now forever. Thats unrealistic.