What's Up With Gonzaga?

[Bill Marsh]

No it's a problem because if they can't handle it and fall off it hurts the conference. If they are a 6-12 Big East team then what value do they bring us?

What value have DePaul and St John's brought while their programs have been in the toilet? What value does any program bring when it doesn't attract fans and viewership, and isn't winning games? How does this hypothetical fall off by Gonzaga hurt its conference more than a fall off by any other team?

Thats a very easy question. The #1 and #3 TV markets in the country with rich recruiting grounds. You're thinking like a fan not a president. A 0-18 DePaul brings more value than a .500 or worse Gonzaga. Gonzaga brings value while being a top flight program. Once they stop being a top flight program they are an albatross around our necks. Thats why these decisions are about more than current success. It's about 10-20-40 years from now. DePaul will always be in Chicago and that alone is worth the price of their admission.

You're thinking like a fan of pro sports. DePaul and St John's do not bring the Chicago and NYC markets respectively. They represent their University communities, not their cities. If I turn on WFAN, St John's doesn't get more than a rare mention. Even less from Michael Kay and the rest at ESPN, which is never. These are pro markets, not college markets.

In Chicago, there is a better chance of Illinois or any number of Big Ten schools exciting college fans in that
market than a moribund DePaul program. Same with Notre Dame in either Chicago or NY.

Casual fans of college basketball aren't restricted to the local schools from big conferences if they want to follow college sports. TV offers plenty of options. If they want to go to a college game, they have no incentive to go to a game featuring a losing DePaul or St John's team. Alums of NY schools like Iona, Manhattan, Columbia, Fordham, St Francis, LIU, and Hofstra aren't suddenly becoming fans of St John's and buying tickets out in Jamaica Estates. They'll go to a game at the Garden if it's a big game. But if they're going to attend a game to watch a team lose, they'll go see their own alma maters. A losing program brings very little when it's losing regardless of its market. The attendance figures for DePaul and .st John's reflect that.

Frankly Gonzaga, or Creighton, or Providence are more likely to bring their markets - albeit smaller markets - when they're losing because they are the only game in town. They do attract casual fans in those markets precisely because there are no pro teams and whenever they play, it's a big event. They are part of the culture of their local communities in a way that big city colleges are not.

As for recruiting, most Big East schools recruit nationally. With a TV contract, kids know that the folks at home will get to see them. Occasionally there is a kid who goes to a school because the conference plays in their home town and they'll get back there once or twice a year. It's not like the ACC. Doesn't get kids from NY and Chicago even though they don't have conference members in those cities. The recruiting benefits are exaggerated.

[NJRedman]

What value have DePaul and St John's brought while their programs have been in the toilet? What value does any program bring when it doesn't attract fans and viewership, and isn't winning games? How does this hypothetical fall off by Gonzaga hurt its conference more than a fall off by any other team?

Thats a very easy question. The #1 and #3 TV markets in the country with rich recruiting grounds. You're thinking like a fan not a president. A 0-18 DePaul brings more value than a .500 or worse Gonzaga. Gonzaga brings value while being a top flight program. Once they stop being a top flight program they are an albatross around our necks. Thats why these decisions are about more than current success. It's about 10-20-40 years from now. DePaul will always be in Chicago and that alone is worth the price of their admission.

You're thinking like a fan of pro sports. DePaul and St John's do not bring the Chicago and NYC markets respectively. They represent their University communities, not their cities. If I turn on WFAN, St John's doesn't get more than a rare mention. Even less from Michael Kay and the rest at ESPN, which is never. These are pro markets, not college markets.

In Chicago, there is a better chance of Illinois or any number of Big Ten schools exciting college fans in that
market than a moribund DePaul program. Same with Notre Dame in either Chicago or NY.

Casual fans of college basketball aren't restricted to the local schools from big conferences if they want to follow college sports. TV offers plenty of options. If they want to go to a college game, they have no incentive to go to a game featuring a losing DePaul or St John's team. Alums of NY schools like Iona, Manhattan, Columbia, Fordham, St Francis, LIU, and Hofstra aren't suddenly becoming fans of St John's and buying tickets out in Jamaica Estates. They'll go to a game at the Garden if it's a big game. But if they're going to attend a game to watch a team lose, they'll go see their own alma maters. A losing program brings very little when it's losing regardless of its market. The attendance figures for DePaul and .st John's reflect that.

Frankly Gonzaga, or Creighton, or Providence are more likely to bring their markets - albeit smaller markets - when they're losing because they are the only game in town. They do attract casual fans in those markets precisely because there are no pro teams and whenever they play, it's a big event. They are part of the culture of their local communities in a way that big city colleges are not.

As for recruiting, most Big East schools recruit nationally. With a TV contract, kids know that the folks at home will get to see them. Occasionally there is a kid who goes to a school because the conference plays in their home town and they'll get back there once or twice a year. It's not like the ACC. Doesn't get kids from NY and Chicago even though they don't have conference members in those cities. The recruiting benefits are exaggerated.

No, i'm not thinking like a sports fan. If you don't think TV markets matter and it's strictly about eyeballs then explain Rutgers invite to the B1G? Those teams means BE games in general are carried in those markets. St. John's getting 10% of NYC TV market to follow them is more valuable than 90% of the Spokane or Omaha market.

I get it, you want to see the really good team in the conference. You think we should add the really good team because they are really good. You see small desperate schools traveling far so why can't we?

I'll ask you a question. If this makes so much sense why didn't the presidents add them 4 years ago?

VCU made a FF run and weren't added. Wichita made a FF run and weren't added. Dayton made an EE run and weren't added. Gonzaga is no different. If it made dollars it would make sense.

[Bill Marsh]

Thats a very easy question. The #1 and #3 TV markets in the country with rich recruiting grounds. You're thinking like a fan not a president. A 0-18 DePaul brings more value than a .500 or worse Gonzaga. Gonzaga brings value while being a top flight program. Once they stop being a top flight program they are an albatross around our necks. Thats why these decisions are about more than current success. It's about 10-20-40 years from now. DePaul will always be in Chicago and that alone is worth the price of their admission.

You're thinking like a fan of pro sports. DePaul and St John's do not bring the Chicago and NYC markets respectively. They represent their University communities, not their cities. If I turn on WFAN, St John's doesn't get more than a rare mention. Even less from Michael Kay and the rest at ESPN, which is never. These are pro markets, not college markets.

In Chicago, there is a better chance of Illinois or any number of Big Ten schools exciting college fans in that
market than a moribund DePaul program. Same with Notre Dame in either Chicago or NY.

Casual fans of college basketball aren't restricted to the local schools from big conferences if they want to follow college sports. TV offers plenty of options. If they want to go to a college game, they have no incentive to go to a game featuring a losing DePaul or St John's team. Alums of NY schools like Iona, Manhattan, Columbia, Fordham, St Francis, LIU, and Hofstra aren't suddenly becoming fans of St John's and buying tickets out in Jamaica Estates. They'll go to a game at the Garden if it's a big game. But if they're going to attend a game to watch a team lose, they'll go see their own alma maters. A losing program brings very little when it's losing regardless of its market. The attendance figures for DePaul and .st John's reflect that.

Frankly Gonzaga, or Creighton, or Providence are more likely to bring their markets - albeit smaller markets - when they're losing because they are the only game in town. They do attract casual fans in those markets precisely because there are no pro teams and whenever they play, it's a big event. They are part of the culture of their local communities in a way that big city colleges are not.

As for recruiting, most Big East schools recruit nationally. With a TV contract, kids know that the folks at home will get to see them. Occasionally there is a kid who goes to a school because the conference plays in their home town and they'll get back there once or twice a year. It's not like the ACC. Doesn't get kids from NY and Chicago even though they don't have conference members in those cities. The recruiting benefits are exaggerated.

No, i'm not thinking like a sports fan. If you don't think TV markets matter and it's strictly about eyeballs then explain Rutgers invite to the B1G?

Different situation. The B1G was able to negotiate deals with local cable carriers in those states to carry the BTN. It's carriage fees they're after, which means they get paid whether anyone watches or not. It's not about ratings. In addition, there is an enormous number of Big Ten alums in both the NY/NJ area and the DC area. They weren't depending on casual fans tunin in.

Those teams means BE games in general are carried in those markets. St. John's getting 10% of NYC TV market to follow them is more valuable than 90% of the Spokane or Omaha market.

Do you have any evidence that St John's is getting 10% of the NYC TV market? I haven't seen that. Fox ratings for the Big East have been low and have not risen to the levels that Fox publicly projected. That's a problem for the Big East long term because if the rating don't improve, the big contract won't be there in 7-8 years. What's the solution?

I get it, you want to see the really good team in the conference. You think we should add the really good team because they are really good. You see small desperate schools traveling far so why can't we?

I'll ask you a question. If this makes so much sense why didn't the presidents add them 4 years ago?

Following that line of reasoning, the conference will never expand with anyone because if it was going to happen, it would already have happened.

The question that I posed at the beginning of this thread is, what will be the response of the Big East if the AAC seeks to add Gonzaga and BCU in addition to Wichita State. When the AAC was formed, it was a terrible basketball conference beyond the top 2-4 programs. Bit since then SMU and Houston have grown dramatically. With the proposed additions to an improving core, there is the potential for another power basketball conference to emerge. In the past, that situation has motivated some conferences to expand im order to remove the proposed targets for expansion from competitor conferences. Just wondering if anyone sees the BE doing the same or just sitting tight.

VCU made a FF run and weren't added. Wichita made a FF run and weren't added. Dayton made an EE run and weren't added. Gonzaga is no different. If it made dollars it would make sense.

Gonzaga is different. It's a natural institutional fit for the Big East. The other 2 aren't. It's one road trip a year for 4-5 teams for any school, trips which can be piggy backed on a trip to Omaha. If that's a deal killer, fine by me. I prefer the 10 team format anyway. I just thought it made for interesting conversation now that the BE season is over and Fonzaga is in the headlines.

[GoldenWarrior11]

The compromise for the Gonzaga conundrum is a scheduling alliance, instead of a full-fledged membership. Have Big East teams play them a over a 3-5 year period. It improves their RPI and SOS, while increasing our visibility and getting a like-minded institution to play a lot against. It also protects against Olympic sports traveling 2,000 miles.

[herodotus]

Why does everyone think that the league needs to be full of powerhouse teams? No league can be all powerhouse teams. Someone has to suck, and it can't be just DePaul. What if you bring in Gonzaga, and St. John's becomes a big winner, and Georgetown rights the ship? Who eats all of those extra losses? Seton Hall? PC? With 20 conference games, that's two fewer cupcakes that can be scheduled ooc to boost the records of the middle to lower teams. Does it really help the league if the side effect of Gonzaga coming in is that St. John's can't get over the hump because the two extra losses are the difference between an NCAA bid, and a trip to the NIT? On the contrary, if you think the current teams will get their share of wins vs Gonzaga, then you're really not getting anything special enough to justify all of the travel. For adding Gonzaga to be worth the hassle, they have to basically be Villanova when they get here, not Seton Hall, or PC. If they're going to be just another nice team, you're better off standing pat. St. Louis can probably be a mid pack team in the league if you become desperate for an 11th school.

[Bill Marsh]

The compromise for the Gonzaga conundrum is a scheduling alliance, instead of a full-fledged membership. Have Big East teams play them a over a 3-5 year period. It improves their RPI and SOS, while increasing our visibility and getting a like-minded institution to play a lot against. It also protects against Olympic sports traveling 2,000 miles.

A scheduling alliance doesn't block a possible move of Gonzaga to another conference.

On the Non-BE Conference Realignment thread, Golden Warrior points out that we are looking at the potential for only 7-8 multi-bid conferences left after Wichita State moves to the AAC, which represents a big change from just a decade ago. Fewer basketball power conferences will men more intense competition among those that are left. Gonzaga is the biggest chip still on the table. Wherever they go, it will be an enormous boost to the basketball profile of that conference.

[EMT]

I would think if Gonzaga was approached by another league, they would call Val and see if there was any interest in adding them.

The AAC was the 7th best conference this year. The WCC was the 9th. Adding Wichita St probably doesn't move them into the top 6. The difference in two spots here doesn't translate in the cost/benefit for them. Would they move to the AAC? Maybe. Would they move to the AAC without closing the door on the BE first? I doubt it.

1 Atlantic Coast Conference 0.5812
2 Big 12 Conference 0.5749
3 Big East Conference 0.5712
4 Big Ten Conference 0.5666
5 Southeastern Conference 0.5578
6 Pac 12 Conference 0.5528
7 American Athletic Conference 0.5271
8 Atlantic 10 Conference 0.5262
9 West Coast Conference 0.5255
10 Mountain West Conference 0.5222

[jfan]

I agree with Bill. The Zags are probably going to go somewhere. It would seem that they have to in order to protect themselves and their future with all the possible conference movement situations. This is why WSU is leaving the Valley. Gonzaga doesn't want to be left behind in a bad conference. They want to come to the BE. Unless UCONN suddenly becomes available, and that doesn't seem likely right now, Gonzaga is the best choice for expansion for a number of reasons. We could keep the round robin and add a team with a great resume. If they would go to the AAC (I realize that move is very unlikely), that conference would become dangerous and would challenge us for the best non football conference. The AAC is taking steps to gain strength and we should do the same. I know there is a geography problem, but that is minute compared to the extra revenue that could be added from a team that routinely goes to the tournament. I don't think our student athletes would be bothered by an occasional trip to Spokane. I was initially against expansion because things are working well, but I'm for adding Gonzaga as soon as possible. We need to be proactive! I'm going to keep riding the poor horse, because I think it is a winner!

[billyjack]

I'm in favor of adding Gonzaga as Bill Marsh has advised. Get 7 bids, and then add a Final Four team. Zags program is in great shape. I would ask them to play a few home games in Seattle. Big East would continue its course to building the top conference in the country.

[Jet915]

If they win the NC, I think they should be added as well. Winning a National Title is a game changer for a program.