Add Dayton and VCU

[muskienick]

And I would take it a step farther than that by saying that the better programs in the Big East not only compete with one another for talented recruits but also compete with the better programs in the Big Ten, SEC, ACC, Big 12, and PAC 12 because of our consistent high ranking among the top 3-6 conferences in the Country. Any time we would elevate a program from a lesser Conference that has not already achieved upper-level relevance and respect nationally (like UConn has), we create another recruiting stumbling block for ourselves by allowing them to share our Conference's well-known name and respect. So by somehow luring UConn back to the Big East (perhaps to stop the financial bleeding due to its expensive BCS-level football program), we gain even greater respect as a Conference without ceding a recruiting advantage to a program that had not already established itself as a real "Player" in a top-level Conference as UConn did consistently in the old Big East. All that PLUS we could retain the Conference Round-Robin nature of our Conference Schedule.

I am curious, would you be ok if Cinci comes back to the Big East?

I'm down for it. I think we could pull it off too, UC has to hate the AAC for basketball.

How quickly we forget! Whenever I have suggested the inclusion of UConn as a member of the Big East, I did so with the caveat they they must come in under OUR STRICT TERMS. We do not want to create another hybrid Conference that spelled the doom of the old Big East. If expansion were to take place by the addition of one or more members with D-1 football programs, they must park that program in a non-Power-5 Conference or go Independent and if, in the future, they accept an all-sports membership in a Power-5 or 4x16 Conference, they must pay a huge exit fee (that could be pared down somewhat over a considerable time frame). Furthermore, I never want such a member to feel like the "ugly step-sister" like the C-7 were made to feel by their FB partners in the old Big East. Each member should have an equal say in the future dealings of the Big East Conference despite their minority standing.

And if the suggestion for the inclusion of Cincy is INSTEAD OF UCONN or IN ADDITION TO UCONN, I am against that since we would be losing any opportunity to add a "needle-affecting" program in UConn in the former and eliminating the opportunity to maintain our round robing conference schedule in the latter.

[Bill Marsh]

It's only your opinion that the Big East doesn't need to add teams now and did need to add them in 2012-13. The fact is that they didn't need to establish themselves as a 10 team league back then. That's as arbitrary a number as 8 or 12. Why did they go to 10 back then instead of simply replacing Notre Dame on the Catholic side of the conference and stay at 8? The same reasons that were convincing to go to 10 can be advanced for going to 12.

No Bill it is not my opinion, it is a fact.

So your opinions are facts. Got it.

The BE needed to expand when they invited XU, Creighton and Butler. How many major 8 team leagues do you know? It was obvious the new league would be 10 to 12 teams.

How many 10 team leagues do you know? Especially among the power conferences? By that logic, you've just made a great argument for expanding.

They choose 10 for a variety of reasons and one was that there were no other great additions after XU, Creighton and Butler. That fact has not changed.

What "fact" has not changed?

UD was a crap option then and is a crap option now.

Obviously you have no interest in discussion. No reasons presented. Just dismissive and insulting. Got it. No need for me to respond, so I won't.

There is no reason to expand right now.

Another "fact". Got it.

[Bill Marsh]

But expansion really isn't the issue that needs to be solved. The issue is TV ratings. Adding teams is only one possible solution to the low ratings which will eventually come back to bite us if they don't improve more than they have. And doing nothing makes it more likely that will remain low.

So, forget about expansion, propose solutions to the problem which needs to be solves, which is low ratings. Other options can be considered besides expansion.

The TV ratings are not an issue worth worrying about right now. People are watching TV way differently today than they were 4 years ago and there is no doubt it will be vastly different in another 8 years. We have no idea if any leagues will have TV deal like we know them to be today. We might all be watching games on Twitter or some other form not yet invented.

Good point.

[Bill Marsh]

My point has more to do with posters' objections to Dayton due to their overlap with Xavier, yet at the same time posters are advocating for UConn, which overlaps with Providence and Notre Dame which overlaps with Butler and to some extent with DePaul.

First, UCONN and ND are not options for expansion. UD would join tomorrow if asked.

Second, UD is no UCONN or ND. Both UCONN and ND move the "needle" UD clearly doesn't.

Now you get it on UConn.

[Bill Marsh]

My point has more to do with posters' objections to Dayton due to their overlap with Xavier, yet at the same time posters are advocating for UConn, which overlaps with Providence and Notre Dame which overlaps with Butler and to some extent with DePaul.

First, UCONN and ND are not options for expansion. UD would join tomorrow if asked.

Second, UD is no UCONN or ND. Both UCONN and ND move the "needle" UD clearly doesn't.

Bill, tell me why vD doesn't play Wright State if territorial issues aren't an issue?

I don't know. Why?

X should consider playing UD 10 years after that Gem City Jam is played again.

You're saying X is afraid to play Dayton because Dayton is some kind of threat to them?

[_lh]

Bill you can pretend all you want that it is not a fact that the BE needed to expand when they invited XU, Creighton and Butler but you continue to look foolish when it is obviously a fact. The BE could not be a 7 team league. It NEEDED to expand. The BE currently DOES NOT need to expand. Those are facts my friend, sorry to break it to you.

UD adds nothing the BE cannot get from other similar A10 or Valley programs. They don't "move the needle" whatsoever. If they made any sense at all, they would already be in the BE. You might be a Providence fan but you are a closet UD fan too.

[SJHooper]

Agree that Dayton doesn't move needle. VCU would be interesting but honestly I don't see them as relevant post Shaka. Yes they made the tourney but they looked pretty bad. I think they missed 30 layups against St. Mary's.

[Bill Marsh]

Bill you can pretend all you want that it is not a fact that the BE needed to expand when the invited XU, Creighton and Butler but you continue to look foolish when it is obviously a fact.

Insults substituting for reason. Good move.

I told you the other day that they don't need to expand. This discussion is all about a solution without discussing the problem, which is low ratings. You still haven't responded to that one.

The BE could not be a 7 team league.

I never said 7. I said 8. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been 8. There are 8 team leagues out there today. Someone evaluated the situation and made a decision to go to 10 instead. They looked at the pros and cons.

It NEEDED to expand.[/quote\

It wasn't a need. It was a decision, a choice.

[quote The BE currently DOES NOT need to expand.

I've never said the BE needs to expand. So we agree on that one.

Those are facts my friend, sorry to break it to you.

Yeah, I'm sorry too. I haven't seen one fact in anything you've said in this post. A preference is not a need. An opinion is not a fact.

UD add nothing the BE cannot get from other similar A10 or Valley programs.

I don't see any similar programs that fit all the BE criteria in either the A10 or the MVC.

They don't "move the needle" whatsoever.

Most teams don't "move the needle". If that were the only criterion, no conference would ever expand. Rutgers and Maryland didn't move the needle for the B1G. Utah and Colorado didn't move the needle for the PAC-12. Missouri and TA&M didn't move the needle for the SEC. Syracuse, Pitt, and BC didn't move the needle for the ACC. This "move the needle" criterion is a straw man.

They made sense at all, If they did they would already be in the BE.

Got it. No conference will ever expand again because if they were going to do it, they would already have done it. In fact realignment ever happened because if a school isn't in a league, they never will be because if they ever were going to be, they would already be there. My head is beginning to hurt from this circular reasoning.

You might be a Providence fan but you are a closet UD fan too.

Is this a serious comment?

If I say anything good about Dayton, I must be a fan? People only say good things about a program if they have an agenda? Wow. That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

I'm not even pushing to add them. All I'm saying is that they're a,egitimatecandidate. For now I'm keeping an eye on them.

[hoops22]

My point has more to do with posters' objections to Dayton due to their overlap with Xavier, yet at the same time posters are advocating for UConn, which overlaps with Providence and Notre Dame which overlaps with Butler and to some extent with DePaul.

First, UCONN and ND are not options for expansion. UD would join tomorrow if asked.

Second, UD is no UCONN or ND. Both UCONN and ND move the "needle" UD clearly doesn't.

Bill, tell me why vD doesn't play Wright State if territorial issues aren't an issue? X should consider playing UD 10 years after that Gem City Jam is played again.

UD is willing to play Wright St., they're just not willing to play home and home with them. Like a lot of teams here in the BE, Dayton relies on revenue from the basketball team to subsidize their other team sports. They're not willing to give up a home game, so they can play a mid pack Horizon League team. There's no benefit to winning, but it becomes a huge blemish should they lose. Also UD dominates the Dayton market, which isn't that big. Why elevate your competition in that market when the benefits to you are so minimal? With regards to UD and X, neither competes with the other for fannies in the seats, or local media coverage. Also Dayton, with an RPI in the 30 range, does not qualify as a bad loss should UD win, and does count as a quality win when X wins. My guess is, if Wright St. consistently became a 50-60 RPI team, the game would be played each year. However right now, there's simply no benefit, and a big downside to UD scheduling them.

[_lh]

Bill, the BE needed to expand when they added XU, Creighton and Butler. That is a fact. I'm not insulting you here.

I'm glad you agree that the BE doesn't need to expand because that is also a fact.