Add Dayton and VCU

[Bill Marsh]

That's completely different. We are talking about adding teams to an already successful conference compared to when the ACC was originally formed. Not the same. The BE is now formed again with 10 solid teams. You only add it if makes sense. No available school makes sense.

If Wake Forest was in the A10, would NC or Duke want to add Wake to the ACC? Doubtful. Georgetown doesn't want GW in the BE, Providence doesn't want URI in the BE. Villanova doesn't want St. Joe's in the BE. UC didn't want XU in the BE. It is not strange that XU fans would not now want UC or UD in the BE.

UCONN, ND, Kansas and Gonzaga are the only programs that would be no brainer additions. None of those are realistic or current options for a number of reasons. There is no value in adding anyone else.

Providence fans would take exception to the addition of UConn being a no brainer the same way that X fans take exception to Dayton. The 2 schools are only an hour apart and historically PC and URI have both recruited stars from CT.

I doubt that Butler fans would welcome ND either.

Providence would have no problem with UConn. If they had a problem with UConn, Dave Gavitt wouldn't have invited them in the 1st place.

That's like saying X wouldn't have a problem with Dayton because they were in the A10 together. It was a different world back in 1979 where travel was largely by bus which took longer than plane flights do today. Using the 1979 model, it would be just as valid to say that Gavitt would have had a problem with adding schools from the Midwest since he didn't invite any.

[Bill Marsh]

Maybe and if they did, XU fans would support them but UCONN and ND would be huge additions that would "move the needle" where UD moves nothing.

Dayton would be comparable to Creighton when they were added. Rabid fan base even though neither moves the needle nationally.

[_lh]

Maybe and if they did, XU fans would support them but UCONN and ND would be huge additions that would "move the needle" where UD moves nothing.

Dayton would be comparable to Creighton when they were added. Rabid fan base even though neither moves the needle nationally.

A HUGE difference is that the BE needed to add teams when they invited XU, Creighton and Butler. NOW they don't so there is no need to add the likes of UD, VCU, Richmond, URI, GW, St. Bonaventure, SLU or any other A10 or Valley team to the BE.

The BE is in great shape with 10. They only programs worth adding would be the programs I listed if they somehow become available or relocate to Missouri from Washington in Gonzaga's case.

[hoopstar]

LOl....so Val gets asked.. Why are you suggesting Dayton? Val answers, well the most successful Business Model conference in our industry is the ACC. They have the Best rivalry in Sports, NC/Duke and the reason for its success is they are only 6 miles apart!!! They get huge TV ratings and National exposure and we have another school only 12 miles from them. Its great and it also helps the less supported sports not have to spend the travel time and money. Val also responds, things have changed my Chicago market is a disaster and and the New York market has also lost its aura, I need a new spark ...like GT vs Syracuse and Dayton/X gives the conference its first real rivalry since we rebooted. So though these schools not have the National Titles like Duke/ NC it can build to that, I remember before coach K Duke was like Xavier just a nice little school that played basketball. Just much better academically.

[Savannah Jay]

Maybe and if they did, XU fans would support them but UCONN and ND would be huge additions that would "move the needle" where UD moves nothing.

Dayton would be comparable to Creighton when they were added. Rabid fan base even though neither moves the needle nationally.

If that was true, then why did the C7 pick Creighton instead of Dayton in 2013? I mean, you have "equal" options and you pick the one that increases travel time and cost to those already in the conference? That doesn't make any sense.

Creighton brings a couple things to the table that Dayton does not. One, it expands the footprint farther west into a somewhat larger MSA (900,000 vs. 800,000). Two, Creighton has now been in the top 10 in attendance for 6 consecutive years. This year, it was fifth with 17,400 fans a game. This year's attendance leaders:
1. Kentucky
2. Syracuse
3. Louisville
4. North Carolina
5. Creighton
6. Wisconsin
7. Maryland
8. Kansas
9. Indiana
10. NC State

I am guessing that this sits "very well" with the Big East offices in NY...that a team in the conference sits among college basketball elite, in terms of attendance.

EDIT: And this home "attendance" has translated into BE Conference attendance, with Creighton selling out its tournament allotment each year in the Big East just like we always did in the Valley tournament. I have no idea if Dayton always does so with the conference tournament.

[Bill Marsh]

Notre Dame is pretty much a non-entity in college basketball recruiting central Indiana. They probably end up intersecting Syracuse or Providence more than Butler or Xavier. Central Indiana is going to be Indiana, Purdue, Michigan, Louisville, Michigan State, Kentucky, etc -- or the best programs in the country.

It is also why Butler recruits a lot in the deep south, which is underserved to an extent opposite that Indianapolis is overserved.

Obviously Notre Dame recruits nationally, but to call them a non-entity in their home state is a stretch. On the current roster, they have 3 players from Indiana and a 4th from suburban Chicago. They don't have any from central or western NY or from RI.

I don't know Butler's recruiting history, but their current roster includes 8 of 14 players from neighboring/Midwest states with 4 of those from Indiana. Of the rest, 4 are from the South and 2 are from the Northast. Of the incoming recruited class, 2 are from the Midwest with 1 from Indiana. One other is from the South and another is from the Northeast. I don't know if that qualifies as recruiting a lot from the South, but since joining the Big East, they have recruited most heavily from the Midwest with a special emphasis on their home state.

[MUBoxer]

Maybe and if they did, XU fans would support them but UCONN and ND would be huge additions that would "move the needle" where UD moves nothing.

Dayton would be comparable to Creighton when they were added. Rabid fan base even though neither moves the needle nationally.

If that was true, then why did the C7 pick Creighton instead of Dayton in 2013? I mean, you have "equal" options and you pick the one that increases travel time and cost to those already in the conference? That doesn't make any sense.

I'm pretty sure it was about 90% because of Creighton's connections to MU and our push to bring you guys in. Don't get me wrong, the attendance and good regular season success I'm sure helped you guys but I'm pretty sure we put you guys on the table and sealed the deal for you.

[HoosierPal]

Notre Dame is pretty much a non-entity in college basketball recruiting central Indiana. They probably end up intersecting Syracuse or Providence more than Butler or Xavier. Central Indiana is going to be Indiana, Purdue, Michigan, Louisville, Michigan State, Kentucky, etc -- or the best programs in the country.

It is also why Butler recruits a lot in the deep south, which is underserved to an extent opposite that Indianapolis is overserved.

I don't know why Bill Marsh is trying to make this theoretical concept an issue. We have no problems with the Irish here in Indy and would welcome them in the conference. I can't remember the last recruit who came down to Butler or ND. Maybe there are none. Heck, Xavier is higher on the "co-recruiting list" than Notre Dame. Nothing here to talk about.

[Bill Marsh]

Maybe and if they did, XU fans would support them but UCONN and ND would be huge additions that would "move the needle" where UD moves nothing.

Dayton would be comparable to Creighton when they were added. Rabid fan base even though neither moves the needle nationally.

If that was true, then why did the C7 pick Creighton instead of Dayton in 2013? I mean, you have "equal" options and you pick the one that increases travel time and cost to those already in the conference? That doesn't make any sense.

Creighton brings a couple things to the table that Dayton does not. One, it expands the footprint farther west into a somewhat larger MSA (900,000 vs. 800,000). Two, Creighton has now been in the top 10 in attendance for 6 consecutive years. This year, it was fifth with 17,400 fans a game. This year's attendance leaders:
1. Kentucky
2. Syracuse
3. Louisville
4. North Carolina
5. Creighton
6. Wisconsin
7. Maryland
8. Kansas
9. Indiana
10. NC State

I am guessing that this sits "very well" with the Big East offices in NY...that a team in the conference sits among college basketball elite, in terms of attendance.

EDIT: And this home "attendance" has translated into BE Conference attendance, with Creighton selling out its tournament allotment each year in the Big East just like we always did in the Valley tournament. I have no idea if Dayton always does so with the conference tournament.

It was well publicized at the time because the Marquette president lobbied for Creighton due to the connections the two had with each other.

I don't know why you put "equal" in quotes. You're not quoting me because I didn't say equal, I said comparable, which doesn't mean equal. I meant that both programs draw high attendance - top 10 for Creighton, top 25 for Dayton consistently. Both had recent success without getting to a Final 4. And both are located in medium sized cities.

I don't see stretching the footprint into the less populated Great Plains region as an advantage for Creighton. As you said, it adds cost and travel time. We hear all the time that Xavier doesn't want Dayton because they're in the same market, but for your purposes you limit their market to just the immediate Dayton area. None of the Big East schools are limited to their local markets. They're not commuter schools. They draw their students regionally and their alumni are spread regionally. The region in which Dayton draws is much larger than Creighton's and is a bigger hit bed for basketball.

Your emphasis on Creighton's attendance as a positive is very appropriate. Dayton's attendance may be a step down, but it's still elite and better than all but a couple of current BE programs. Their attendance brings value just as Creighton's does.

I don't know why I can't mention Dayton in the same breath as Creighton as having some similarities without a Creighton fan getting all defensive. Creighton's in the Big East to stay. They're a great member. Their selection was a good choice. Relax. Discussing Dayton's pros and cons is no threat to Creighton. Criticism of Dayton on this board has gotten to be so reflexive that it seems impossible to talk about them calmly and objectively without getting into a fight.

[Bill Marsh]

Notre Dame is pretty much a non-entity in college basketball recruiting central Indiana. They probably end up intersecting Syracuse or Providence more than Butler or Xavier. Central Indiana is going to be Indiana, Purdue, Michigan, Louisville, Michigan State, Kentucky, etc -- or the best programs in the country.

It is also why Butler recruits a lot in the deep south, which is underserved to an extent opposite that Indianapolis is overserved.

I don't know why Bill Marsh is trying to make this theoretical concept an issue. We have no problems with the Irish here in Indy and would welcome them in the conference. I can't remember the last recruit who came down to Butler or ND. Maybe there are none. Heck, Xavier is higher on the "co-recruiting list" than Notre Dame. Nothing here to talk about.

My point has more to do with posters' objections to Dayton due to their overlap with Xavier, yet at the same time posters are advocating for UConn, which overlaps with Providence and Notre Dame which overlaps with Butler and to some extent with DePaul.