Add Dayton and VCU

[Savannah Jay]

Since a decision like this rests with university presidents, can anyone actually envision the presidents of Georgetown and Villanova (I use them as probably the most prestigious academic institutions in a league with very, very good academic institutions) accepting Wichita as an academic peer? I can't...as far as their athletics, prior to Marshall they went through a 25 year period where they made 1 NCAA tournament.

I am all for keeping the universities collective "eyes open" for ways to make the conference even better. I've not seen anyone adequately articulate how adding any of the available schools make our conference better.

I don't see very many fans of the big conferences raving about how awesome it is to have a conference with 14 or 15 schools, or how cool it is to get to play a certain school (with unbalanced scheduling they can't even guarantee a home game every year against the "marquee" programs). I wonder if Michigan and Ohio State are happy that Rutgers is part of the Big 10? That's hardly the only example of "expansion for the sake of expansion" and I have not heard any fans or read any well-written articles about how awesome it is to be in a super conference.

As I live in SEC country (the oldest of the super conferences, I think), there are no new rivalries or "it's awesome we get to play A&M, or Missouri, or Arkansas sometimes" among the fans in GA. The best rivalries will always be the old conference mates and only when those new schools are really, really good does anyone get even a little bit excited about them coming to town. Maybe part of the issue is that new schools haven't been competitive enough (I am not motivated to check, but has any of the additions ever won a conference championship in basketball or football?).

Before or after entering the conference?

Off the top of my head, Texas won a NC in football after the Big 8 incorporated 4 schools from the old Southwest Conference to form the Big 12. Forty years ago, the PAC 8 expanded by adding Arizona and ASU. Arizona later won a NC in basketball. After the SEC originally expanded with South Carolina and Arkansas, the Razorbacks won a NC in basketball.

Hey Bill...sorry I did not elaborate. I was speaking to the latest round of conference realignments (so really subsequent to the demise of the old Southwest conference).

So in the last 27 years, the Razorbacks won the 1994 National Title in basketball (I believe they won the regular season title that year and another year). So in the 27 years since the SEC expanded (the first time), there have been three regular season basketball titles, one conference tournament title, and a NC in basketball by the "new" membership (all except a regular season championship have been by the Razorbacks). (Side note...no championships by the new members in football). Obviously, their expansion was a football decision so it's a little hard to make the leap to a basketball discussion but, again, I don't hear a lot of fans raving about their new conference mates (although we all know the SEC, in general, has a collective arrogance about their conference).

[ohiohsbball]

Since a decision like this rests with university presidents, can anyone actually envision the presidents of Georgetown and Villanova (I use them as probably the most prestigious academic institutions in a league with very, very good academic institutions) accepting Wichita as an academic peer? I can't...as far as their athletics, prior to Marshall they went through a 25 year period where they made 1 NCAA tournament.

I am all for keeping the universities collective "eyes open" for ways to make the conference even better. I've not seen anyone adequately articulate how adding any of the available schools make our conference better.

I don't see very many fans of the big conferences raving about how awesome it is to have a conference with 14 or 15 schools, or how cool it is to get to play a certain school (with unbalanced scheduling they can't even guarantee a home game every year against the "marquee" programs). I wonder if Michigan and Ohio State are happy that Rutgers is part of the Big 10? That's hardly the only example of "expansion for the sake of expansion" and I have not heard any fans or read any well-written articles about how awesome it is to be in a super conference.

As I live in SEC country (the oldest of the super conferences, I think), there are no new rivalries or "it's awesome we get to play A&M, or Missouri, or Arkansas sometimes" among the fans in GA. The best rivalries will always be the old conference mates and only when those new schools are really, really good does anyone get even a little bit excited about them coming to town. Maybe part of the issue is that new schools haven't been competitive enough (I am not motivated to check, but has any of the additions ever won a conference championship in basketball or football?).

I haven't chimed in for a while on this board mainly because the conversation of realignment is pretty much a dead issue to me, but you do bring up an interesting question about the super conferences.

From coaching I've had the opportunity to meet many administrators at many universities and everything boils down to one thing; $$$$. These mega conferences bring in a lot of money whether the fans like it or not. As a follower of Ohio State football I could care less about Rutgers or Maryland for that matter, but when you add in those two markets for eyeballs it makes a lot of sense for the BIG. There is no way anyone can convince me that Rutgers and Maryland fir the athletic profile for the BIG; money wise is pretty much a no brainer. I still say by the time this is all said and done within the next 5-7 years we have four mega, 16 team conferences and the BIG 12 doesn't last. That's just my opinion, but a lot of schools are upset with Texas over the Longhorn Network TV deal and as soon as the PAC12 or BIG come calling, they will out.

As far as this league, I still say the league eventually expands to 12. I said at the beginning I predicted within the first three years that Dayton and St. Louis would be added; obviously I was wrong, but I still think that eventually that is the direction the league goes. Maybe tomorrow, maybe in 15 years, but I do think that move is inevitable. I just don't see VCU fitting the format of the rest of the Big East schools; then again I didn't see Creighton and Butler in either, so what do I know? Obviously nothing!

[_lh]

As far as this league, I still say the league eventually expands to 12. I said at the beginning I predicted within the first three years that Dayton and St. Louis would be added; obviously I was wrong, but I still think that eventually that is the direction the league goes. Maybe tomorrow, maybe in 15 years, but I do think that move is inevitable. I just don't see VCU fitting the format of the rest of the Big East schools; then again I didn't see Creighton and Butler in either, so what do I know? Obviously nothing!

Why will the BE expand to 12? What reason? The BE does not need to be more than 10 teams. It is doing great with the 10 they have. It is always easy to expand (UD, SLU, VCU, etc.) will always come when called but it would be impossible to get rid of them once they are here.

None of these available schools add any value. UCONN, ND and Kansas are the only three expansion programs that would be worth it and all three of those are extreme long shots. The BE will remain a strong 10 for a long time. Enjoy it and quit pushing crap programs like UD on the BE.

[stever20]

As far as this league, I still say the league eventually expands to 12. I said at the beginning I predicted within the first three years that Dayton and St. Louis would be added; obviously I was wrong, but I still think that eventually that is the direction the league goes. Maybe tomorrow, maybe in 15 years, but I do think that move is inevitable. I just don't see VCU fitting the format of the rest of the Big East schools; then again I didn't see Creighton and Butler in either, so what do I know? Obviously nothing!

Why will the BE expand to 12? What reason? The BE does not need to be more than 10 teams. It is doing great with the 10 they have. It is always easy to expand (UD, SLU, VCU, etc.) will always come when called but it would be impossible to get rid of them once they are here.

None of these available schools add any value. UCONN, ND and Kansas are the only three expansion programs that would be worth it and all three of those are extreme long shots. The BE will remain a strong 10 for a long time. Enjoy it and quit pushing crap programs like UD on the BE.

The easiest reason why the Big East will expand to 12 sooner rather than later is volume for TV. Fox is going to demand it.

[hoopstar]

The Big East is going to expand. I don't think its now but I also don't think its more than 3 years off. Has nothing to do with whom one school likes or doesent, location is not the issue( with the exception of the west coast schools). The Presidents and ADs will change etc. Its all about Money and one day Santa is going to knock on the door and all of sudden 12 will make more sence. All about the Money. All the emotion and likes and dislikes don't mean anything. MONEY....and as the other conferences shift and they will, so will the Big East.

[GoldenWarrior11]

The Big East will, eventually, expand. It may not be this year, or maybe not even by the time the next TV contract is negotiated, but it will expand. It is inevitable. Why? Because expansion offers more growth, more content, and more opportunities. UConn is the lone public school exception, but the league will not expand with public schools (no VCU, no Wichita State). UConn has a built-in history and relationship with Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Providence, and St. Johns - not to mention being a big part of the NYC viewership. Dayton and Saint Louis are 11 and 12, respectively on the expansion list because of their shared like-minded institution (Catholic/Jesuit), strong academics, non-FBS athletic program (which is also focused mainly on men's basketball), strong fan bases and prominent markets (St. Louis especially).

Some may immediately question why, but the why is quite clear: when the Big East reorganized, it's main focus was to re-establish itself as a top basketball conference. With the additions of Butler, Creighton and Xavier, it did that. It's other focus was to be a strong contender in the tournament - with Villanova's national championship, it did that. Another focus was to solidify New York as its base of operations - with the attendance and support we continue to have at Madison Square Garden, we have done that. The next logical step is to how to grow the league and its member institutions. Expansion will, inevitably, be on the docket.

Say it is eventually Dayton and Saint Louis (and not UConn - who decides to remain committed to FBS): what does the Big East add? Two strong universities that would bring over 25k current student in support of the Big East, and strong alumni presences in New York, Chicago, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and Washington D.C. With Dayton you get one of the most passionate fan bases in the country, a consistently strong program in the A-10, and a program that has consistently made the tournament in March. An added bonus, if added in near future, would be to add one of best young coaches in the nation in Archie Miller. With Saint Louis, you add one of the biggest markets in our footprint - in a market that doesn't have any Winter competition (NFL/NBA team), and a basketball recruiting rich area of the country. You also get a program that could be very competitive when joined with the Big East banner, one that would get to consistently face peers in the top non-FBS conference in the country. Finally, with both additions, you would get two schools that have history with Marquette, DePaul, Xavier, Butler and Creighton (half the league). You would also get two strong arenas that both seat over 10k people.

[Bill Marsh]

Since a decision like this rests with university presidents, can anyone actually envision the presidents of Georgetown and Villanova (I use them as probably the most prestigious academic institutions in a league with very, very good academic institutions) accepting Wichita as an academic peer? I can't...as far as their athletics, prior to Marshall they went through a 25 year period where they made 1 NCAA tournament.

I am all for keeping the universities collective "eyes open" for ways to make the conference even better. I've not seen anyone adequately articulate how adding any of the available schools make our conference better.

I don't see very many fans of the big conferences raving about how awesome it is to have a conference with 14 or 15 schools, or how cool it is to get to play a certain school (with unbalanced scheduling they can't even guarantee a home game every year against the "marquee" programs). I wonder if Michigan and Ohio State are happy that Rutgers is part of the Big 10? That's hardly the only example of "expansion for the sake of expansion" and I have not heard any fans or read any well-written articles about how awesome it is to be in a super conference.

As I live in SEC country (the oldest of the super conferences, I think), there are no new rivalries or "it's awesome we get to play A&M, or Missouri, or Arkansas sometimes" among the fans in GA. The best rivalries will always be the old conference mates and only when those new schools are really, really good does anyone get even a little bit excited about them coming to town. Maybe part of the issue is that new schools haven't been competitive enough (I am not motivated to check, but has any of the additions ever won a conference championship in basketball or football?).

Off the top of my head, Texas won a NC in football after the Big 8 incorporated 4 schools from the old Southwest Conference to form the Big 12. Forty years ago, the PAC 8 expanded by adding Arizona and ASU. Arizona later won a NC in basketball. After the SEC originally expanded with South Carolina and Arkansas, the Razorbacks won a NC in basketball.

Hey Bill...sorry I did not elaborate. I was speaking to the latest round of conference realignments (so really subsequent to the demise of the old Southwest conference).

So in the last 27 years, the Razorbacks won the 1994 National Title in basketball (I believe they won the regular season title that year and another year). So in the 27 years since the SEC expanded (the first time), there have been three regular season basketball titles, one conference tournament title, and a NC in basketball by the "new" membership (all except a regular season championship have been by the Razorbacks). (Side note...no championships by the new members in football). Obviously, their expansion was a football decision so it's a little hard to make the leap to a basketball discussion but, again, I don't hear a lot of fans raving about their new conference mates (although we all know the SEC, in general, has a collective arrogance about their conference).

The demise of the Southwest Conference occurred within the last 27 years. The SEC began realignment by plucking Arkansas from the Southwest Conference along with South Carolina, an independent. The Big 8 followed by inviting 4 Texas schools from the Southwest Conference in 1994. They joined in 1996, which meant the end of the SWC that same year. Texas later went on to win a football NC as a member of the Big 12.

In 2005, the Big East expanded with Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, Marquette, and DePaul from CUSA to replace Syracuse, VA Tech, and BC who had been lost to the ACC. In 2013, Louisville won a NC while still a member of the Big East and before leaving for the ACC the following year.

Without getting into regular season championships, the score card would be 2 NC in basketball and 1 in football by schools that changed conferences in the current round of realignment over the past 27 years.

[stever20]

You could add to that the 3 titles that Florida St won after joining the ACC back in 1992. Also, UConn basketball 2014 title would be after realignment as well. So it's really now 4 in football and 3 in basketball.

[Bill Marsh]

You could add to that the 3 titles that Florida St won after joining the ACC back in 1992. Also, UConn basketball 2014 title would be after realignment as well. So it's really now 4 in football and 3 in basketball.

I didn't want to go down that road, but if we look t it that way, then we'd also include Miami's 2001 football NC and possibly their 1991 title as well. Big East football was a separate entity, which didn't begin until 1991 and didn't begin full competition until 1993. It too was part of the whole relignment process that was going on at the time.

[SJU1987]

The Big East will, eventually, expand. It may not be this year, or maybe not even by the time the next TV contract is negotiated, but it will expand. It is inevitable. Why? Because expansion offers more growth, more content, and more opportunities. UConn is the lone public school exception, but the league will not expand with public schools (no VCU, no Wichita State). UConn has a built-in history and relationship with Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Providence, and St. Johns - not to mention being a big part of the NYC viewership. Dayton and Saint Louis are 11 and 12, respectively on the expansion list because of their shared like-minded institution (Catholic/Jesuit), strong academics, non-FBS athletic program (which is also focused mainly on men's basketball), strong fan bases and prominent markets (St. Louis especially).

Some may immediately question why, but the why is quite clear: when the Big East reorganized, it's main focus was to re-establish itself as a top basketball conference. With the additions of Butler, Creighton and Xavier, it did that. It's other focus was to be a strong contender in the tournament - with Villanova's national championship, it did that. Another focus was to solidify New York as its base of operations - with the attendance and support we continue to have at Madison Square Garden, we have done that. The next logical step is to how to grow the league and its member institutions. Expansion will, inevitably, be on the docket.

Say it is eventually Dayton and Saint Louis (and not UConn - who decides to remain committed to FBS): what does the Big East add? Two strong universities that would bring over 25k current student in support of the Big East, and strong alumni presences in New York, Chicago, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and Washington D.C. With Dayton you get one of the most passionate fan bases in the country, a consistently strong program in the A-10, and a program that has consistently made the tournament in March. An added bonus, if added in near future, would be to add one of best young coaches in the nation in Archie Miller. With Saint Louis, you add one of the biggest markets in our footprint - in a market that doesn't have any Winter competition (NFL/NBA team), and a basketball recruiting rich area of the country. You also get a program that could be very competitive when joined with the Big East banner, one that would get to consistently face peers in the top non-FBS conference in the country. Finally, with both additions, you would get two schools that have history with Marquette, DePaul, Xavier, Butler and Creighton (half the league). You would also get two strong arenas that both seat over 10k people.

I totally support Dayton. All Dayton needs is a better conference and they'd be really good. I don't like St. Louis. They have a nice market , but so does DePaul. The Big East has plenty of big markets anyway.
We should grab Wichita state while they're hot and to prevent them from going to the AAC. Maybe add UCONN if they give up the football dream and add Gonzaga if it can be worked out. The Big East already indicated they'd be open to adding a public school.