Accountability at St. John's

[SJHooper]

Lol...ugh keep getting drawn back in...it's also important to point out that UConn's standards are relative. A 20 win season making it to the Round of 32 is good by St. John's standards...very good even. But by UConn standards, it's disappointing. I never said Ollie was a bad coach, but he's a clear step back from Calhoun so far, but of course he has a lot of time to prove his worth. To quote Obama, "you didn't build that". The foundation was set by Calhoun both physically in players and also prestige. UConn fans are very disappointed with Ollie, read their forum. Calhoun made UConn a blue blood. Taking Calhoun out of the equation for UConn is like taking Belichek out of the equation for the Patriots. By the way Gumby, I assume you meant AAC not ACC UConn is in a very different place now.

SJ needs a game-changing coach to take us to new heights.

[NJRedman]

SJHooper, you said "we were expecting night & day differences" with this year's expectations compared to last year. Who is the "we" you are referring to? Redmen? I mean come on, most people weren't expecting St. John's to make leaps and bounds over last year. Yes, there were probably some overly optimistic St. John's fans at the start of the year. Every team has them. But I don't think a majority were thinking anything less than somewhere between 7th and 9th place. If SJU fans weren't, then maybe that's where the problem lies. I've said this before, just about every prediction I read on the Big East had SJU finishing in one of the bottom 3 spots. Did the SJU fans that were thinking "night & day difference" know something that others didn't? I think next season should be your real barometer. Assuming everyone comes back, plus you add the 2 transfers sitting out this year, if they are not at least pulling an NIT bid (anything more would just be gravy) then I'd be worried about the direction of the program.

We as in the national media, local media, SJ fans, and college hoops fans by in large. I believe it was CBS who had us in a top 10 list of most improved teams. My fear is that next season we still won't play well, will not win more than 15 games and instead of suggesting Mullin is not the answer, fans will point to everything else: i.e. "LoVett and Yakwe left", "Player A or B got injured", "maybe the recruits just aren't good", "wait until we are healthy next year", etc. I've even heard people say "this is really year 1 for Mullin, last year was not year 1" so who is to say that the goal post won't constantly be moved again? With good coaches, as more talent comes in and everyone including the coach gets more experience, you should see a clear and fairly rapid improvement. Many players only have 4 years...we don't have 10 years for kids to develop or for Mullin to develop. If you don't produce after 3 years at all it's time to move on. Sometimes if you don't see improvement it means you have a bad coach and that's it. Many don't want to address the elephant in the room. I root for Mullin more than anyone but I can't just pretend I'm optimistic...if I had to bet my car, I would bet that the experiment does not work out. Sorry. Just based on what I've seen.

That national media was still picking us to finish in 9th or 10th place! Most improved because we were one of the worst teams in the country last year! No one predicted us to make the NCAA's or the NITs. SO maybe you should go back and reread all of the preseason articles.

Sports Illustrated picks SJU to finish in 9th place:

http://www.si.com/college-basketball/20 ... -creighton

USA Today 7th place:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nc ... /92788038/

SB Nation 10th place:

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketb ... own-xavier

Fox Sports 10th place

http://www.foxsports.com/college-basket ... ova-122915

The Big East coaches poll 8th place:

http://www.bigeast.com/news/2016/10/10/ ... 64924.aspx

CBS Sports 10th place:

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basket ... villanova/

So who were these experts who picked us to have a night and day turn around? And can we stop with this crap that you root for Mullin harder than anyone? If you did, you'd know last year was a wash and you wouldn't count it towards his 3 years you say every coach has. If thats the case then you are only giving him 2 actual years of having a real team.

[Bill Marsh]

In my mind how he has done in the ACC has been where he has under-performed. Each year he's gotten worse: 3rd, 5th, 6th and now 7th. The ACC is not a particularly strong conference IMO. I expected them to dominate that conference from day one.

Fair point.

There are a couple of factors that mitigate that to some extent.

1. UConn has not been a dominant team in regular season conference play in either conference for the past decade regardless of the coach. Had they not come from nowhere in both NC runs, no one would be thinking of them as a dominant program in recent years. In contrast to their postseason success, here are their conference finishes in Calhoun's last 6 years in reverse order - 9th, 9th, 12th, 3rd, 3rd, 12th.

2. The AAC has improved in its depth of teams every year since it was formed.

[sciencejay]

Lol...ugh keep getting drawn back in...it's also important to point out that UConn's standards are relative. A 20 win season making it to the Round of 32 is good by St. John's standards...very good even. But by UConn standards, it's disappointing. I never said Ollie was a bad coach, but he's a clear step back from Calhoun so far, but of course he has a lot of time to prove his worth. To quote Obama, "you didn't build that". The foundation was set by Calhoun both physically in players and also prestige. UConn fans are very disappointed with Ollie, read their forum. Calhoun made UConn a blue blood. Taking Calhoun out of the equation for UConn is like taking Belichek out of the equation for the Patriots. By the way Gumby, I assume you meant AAC not ACC UConn is in a very different place now.

SJ needs a game-changing coach to take us to new heights.

This has to be my favorite post of all time from you, Hooper! "Ugh, keep getting drawn back in" Are you kidding? You're like Stever in that when someone disagrees with you, you come back with the same statements as if repeating them makes them more true (Stever uses stats). Long paragraph after long paragraph after long paragraph ranting about how terrible Mullin is and about how if SJ doesn't get great game-changing Coach X to come in next year, no decent recruit will ever come to SJ again. The AD didn't respond to a message from you (an alum? a booster? a BIG booster?), and you interpret that as if they don't care about winning. Incredible. Do you think the SJ AD should respond to all fan inquiries about the direction of the program? On and on and on. Give it a rest and come in off the ledge.

[NJRedman]

Lol...ugh keep getting drawn back in...it's also important to point out that UConn's standards are relative. A 20 win season making it to the Round of 32 is good by St. John's standards...very good even. But by UConn standards, it's disappointing. I never said Ollie was a bad coach, but he's a clear step back from Calhoun so far, but of course he has a lot of time to prove his worth. To quote Obama, "you didn't build that". The foundation was set by Calhoun both physically in players and also prestige. UConn fans are very disappointed with Ollie, read their forum. Calhoun made UConn a blue blood. Taking Calhoun out of the equation for UConn is like taking Belichek out of the equation for the Patriots. By the way Gumby, I assume you meant AAC not ACC UConn is in a very different place now.

SJ needs a game-changing coach to take us to new heights.

This has to be my favorite post of all time from you, Hooper! "Ugh, keep getting drawn back in" Are you kidding? You're like Stever in that when someone disagrees with you, you come back with the same statements as if repeating them makes them more true (Stever uses stats). Long paragraph after long paragraph after long paragraph ranting about how terrible Mullin is and about how if SJ doesn't get great game-changing Coach X to come in next year, no decent recruit will ever come to SJ again. The AD didn't respond to a message from you (an alum? a booster? a BIG booster?), and you interpret that as if they don't care about winning. Incredible. Do you think the SJ AD should respond to all fan inquiries about the direction of the program? On and on and on. Give it a rest and come in off the ledge.

The funniest part is that the AD has been on the job MAYBE a month. hahaha Yeah, he's not busy or anything.

[Bill Marsh]

Lol...ugh keep getting drawn back in...it's also important to point out that UConn's standards are relative. A 20 win season making it to the Round of 32 is good by St. John's standards...very good even. But by UConn standards, it's disappointing. I never said Ollie was a bad coach, but he's a clear step back from Calhoun so far, but of course he has a lot of time to prove his worth. To quote Obama, "you didn't build that". The foundation was set by Calhoun both physically in players and also prestige. UConn fans are very disappointed with Ollie, read their forum. Calhoun made UConn a blue blood. Taking Calhoun out of the equation for UConn is like taking Belichek out of the equation for the Patriots. By the way Gumby, I assume you meant AAC not ACC UConn is in a very different place now.

SJ needs a game-changing coach to take us to new heights.

Whose standards, who built it, and how he compares with Calhoun are irrelevant. It's really very simple. Is Kevin Ollie a successful college coach in his first 5 years on the job?

[Hall2012]

Lol...ugh keep getting drawn back in...it's also important to point out that UConn's standards are relative. A 20 win season making it to the Round of 32 is good by St. John's standards...very good even. But by UConn standards, it's disappointing. I never said Ollie was a bad coach, but he's a clear step back from Calhoun so far, but of course he has a lot of time to prove his worth. To quote Obama, "you didn't build that". The foundation was set by Calhoun both physically in players and also prestige. UConn fans are very disappointed with Ollie, read their forum. Calhoun made UConn a blue blood. Taking Calhoun out of the equation for UConn is like taking Belichek out of the equation for the Patriots. By the way Gumby, I assume you meant AAC not ACC UConn is in a very different place now.

SJ needs a game-changing coach to take us to new heights.

This has to be my favorite post of all time from you, Hooper! "Ugh, keep getting drawn back in" Are you kidding? You're like Stever in that when someone disagrees with you, you come back with the same statements as if repeating them makes them more true (Stever uses stats). Long paragraph after long paragraph after long paragraph ranting about how terrible Mullin is and about how if SJ doesn't get great game-changing Coach X to come in next year, no decent recruit will ever come to SJ again. The AD didn't respond to a message from you (an alum? a booster? a BIG booster?), and you interpret that as if they don't care about winning. Incredible. Do you think the SJ AD should respond to all fan inquiries about the direction of the program? On and on and on. Give it a rest and come in off the ledge.

To be fair - I certainly don't think this is the norm but I've heard that SHU's AD, Pat Lyons, will respond to any and all respectfully worded emails. I can't say how promptly as I'm sure he's busy and I've never sent an email myself, but SHU is lucky to have an AD who is openly willing to communicate with and receive feedback, both positive and critical, from fans and alumni.

So again, I doubt it's the norm for college AD's, but the thought that SJU's AD could take a minute to respond to Hooper, even just a "Thank you for your support and concerns" isn't all that crazy. Do I think no response means SJU doesn't care about winning? Of course not, but as long as Hooper didn't sound like a ranting lunatic is his email, a response would have been nice.

[Red Rooster]

Lol...ugh keep getting drawn back in...it's also important to point out that UConn's standards are relative. A 20 win season making it to the Round of 32 is good by St. John's standards...very good even. But by UConn standards, it's disappointing. I never said Ollie was a bad coach, but he's a clear step back from Calhoun so far, but of course he has a lot of time to prove his worth. To quote Obama, "you didn't build that". The foundation was set by Calhoun both physically in players and also prestige. UConn fans are very disappointed with Ollie, read their forum. Calhoun made UConn a blue blood. Taking Calhoun out of the equation for UConn is like taking Belichek out of the equation for the Patriots. By the way Gumby, I assume you meant AAC not ACC UConn is in a very different place now.

SJ needs a game-changing coach to take us to new heights.

This has to be my favorite post of all time from you, Hooper! "Ugh, keep getting drawn back in" Are you kidding? You're like Stever in that when someone disagrees with you, you come back with the same statements as if repeating them makes them more true (Stever uses stats). Long paragraph after long paragraph after long paragraph ranting about how terrible Mullin is and about how if SJ doesn't get great game-changing Coach X to come in next year, no decent recruit will ever come to SJ again. The AD didn't respond to a message from you (an alum? a booster? a BIG booster?), and you interpret that as if they don't care about winning. Incredible. Do you think the SJ AD should respond to all fan inquiries about the direction of the program? On and on and on. Give it a rest and come in off the ledge.

Be careful, sciencejay! He'll label you like he's done so, many others who has him figured out. He's more "up and down" than the typical rollercoaster at an amusement park. Basically, like a pendulum. He's also the "Last Word King," so I better stop here.

IMO, Mullin (and, of course, the team) needs to show growth the remainder of the season. Then, next season needs to be, no less, than an NIT season. Do those things, then it'll show proof things are moving in the right direction. Finish this season off somewhat crappy, and no postseason next season, then Hooper points will have merit (heck, I'll more than likely join in with him). Until then, he needs to "give it a rest and come in off the ledge," but I know he's not capable of doing so.

[Bill Marsh]

Lol...ugh keep getting drawn back in...it's also important to point out that UConn's standards are relative. A 20 win season making it to the Round of 32 is good by St. John's standards...very good even. But by UConn standards, it's disappointing.

Then I guess Calhoun disappointed more than he succeeded. Since 2000, following their first NC establishing them as a top program, UConn failed to get past the Round of 32 seven times in 13 years under Calhoun. It's not like they were a perennial fixture in the Sweet 16 and beyond. Let's add to that 2013 because their suspension resulted from what happened on Calhoun's watch. So, only 6 times in 14 years (2000-13) did Calhoun get the last the 2nd round.

I never said Ollie was a bad coach.

Right. You never used those words. Here's what you did say:

"The more we see Ollie by himself . . . the more he struggles. IMO that is not by accident. UConn is a mess."

"Ollie is finally left the keys with his players and what has he done? Nothing."

"The further UConn gets from their Big East glory days, the more irrelevant they will become and recruiting will fall off gradually."

I offered a simple proposition, which is that Ollie is an example of a former NBA player who has been successful as a college coach without prior head coaching experience. You attacked that proposition. If you're not saying that Ollie's a bad coach, why the repeated disagreement with me using him as a second example along with Hoiberg?

And why not provide even a single example of the failure of an NBA player-turned-college-coach after saying that it's 100% true that the overwhelming number of those who've attempted it have failed? (I had already pointed to Drexler as one example.)

[GumbyDamnit!]

In my mind how he has done in the ACC has been where he has under-performed. Each year he's gotten worse: 3rd, 5th, 6th and now 7th. The ACC is not a particularly strong conference IMO. I expected them to dominate that conference from day one.

Fair point.

There are a couple of factors that mitigate that to some extent.

1. UConn has not been a dominant team in regular season conference play in either conference for the past decade regardless of the coach. Had they not come from nowhere in both NC runs, no one would be thinking of them as a dominant program in recent years. In contrast to their postseason success, here are their conference finishes in Calhoun's last 6 years in reverse order - 9th, 9th, 12th, 3rd, 3rd, 12th.

2. The AAC has improved in its depth of teams every year since it was formed.

The AAC is fine but it lacks quality depth at the top like the old BE. Not only would the BE put 7-10 teams in each year but many were very high seeds. L'ville, Cuse, Nova, G'town, Marq., Pitt, ND. It was a tough, tough league year in year out. Other than maybe SMU a couple years ago, I don't think there has been one dominant team in that league yet.

Interesting I went back to look at RPI average between Ollie in 4 years and Calhoun the last 10.
Ollie = 70 avg. RPI
Calhoun = 33.3 avg. RPI