Non-Big East Conference Realignment Thread v. 2017

[GoldenWarrior11]

UConn loses at Memphis, dropping them to 0-3 in the American. The last time they were 0-3 in conference was in 1984-85. To make matters worse, a game between two of the top programs in the American had few people in the stands during the game (see below):



In other news, here is a Hartford article on why UConn needs to drop football:

http://www.courant.com/opinion/op-ed/hc-op-rennie-reconsider-uconn-football-program-0108-20170105-column.html

[Bill Marsh]

Many consider the 1985 season the start of the modern era, so that's a pretty good starter for your ranging.

I suppose you could argue the Bird/Magic 1979 season but that was still 32 teams.

Anything before that is just the dark ages. An age that didn't live broadcast the freaking NCAA Tournament has no bearing on the current state of the sport.

The significance of 1975 as the start of the modern era is the fact that more than one team from a conference could get into the tournament. That means that it took a lot more to advance in the tournament than it had previously. Comparing "Final Fours" or "Elite 8's" from post-1975 to pre-1975 is like apples and oranges. Here are some examples:

1960 - #4 Bradley (27-2) with All American and future NBA champion Chet Walker didn't make the tournament because they finished 2nd in the Missouri Valley Conference to eventual national runner up Cincinnati.

1965 - Unranked Wichita State advanced to the Final 4 without facing a single ranked team in the earlier rounds in which they earned that spot. Wichita State was promptly beaten by 19 by UCLA and then by Princeton by 36 in the consolation game.

1974 - #4 Maryland (23-5) with Tom McMillen, Len Elmore, and John Lucas didn't make the tournament because they lost in their conference tournament by 3 points in OT to eventual national champs NC State (30-1). 3 of Maryland's 5 losses that year came against NC State, a 4th was by 1 point on the road to Bill Walton's UCLA defending national champs in the opening game of the season, and the 5th was to #12 North Carolina on the road.

When teams of the caliber of Bradley and Maryland in those years don't even make the tournament, the tournament itself is stripped of a good deal of its talent. Conversely, when a team like 1965 Wichita State gets credit for a Final Four when it was nowhere near that caliber of team it just detracts from the meaning of that term.

There are certainly other seasons that could be identified as the start of the modern era, e.g. 1979 (s-curve seedlings), 1986 (shot clock), 1987 (3-point shot). IMO opening the tournament to conference also-rans was the most fundamental in terms of using tournament selection and advancement as a measure of team quality. So, that's where I begin.

[Bill Marsh]

Bill, fair enough. Those are all legitimate points to consider. However, on a case by case basis, I think there are fewer concerns about the future success of Xavier than there are of VCU and Dayton. I think we were more of a known quantity than any non-major program at the time of realignment outside of Gonzaga. When VCU or Dayton or any other school elevate their status to that level, I think they will be worth bringing in. Until that happens, I don't think there is any good reason to expand.

I agree. And I have no complaints about the 3 programs who were chosen as the additions to the original C7. I think they made the right choice. I'm only saying that if there were to be a decision to expand, there are good candidates who would be positive additions.

I also agree that there is no reason to expand unless Fox says there is.

[Bill Marsh]

UConn loses at Memphis, dropping them to 0-3 in the American. The last time they were 0-3 in conference was in 1984-85. To make matters worse, a game between two of the top programs in the American had few people in the stands during the game (see below):



In other news, here is a Hartford article on why UConn needs to drop football:

http://www.courant.com/opinion/op-ed/hc-op-rennie-reconsider-uconn-football-program-0108-20170105-column.html

Do you know who Kevin Rennie is? I wouldn't put any stock in that article.

[gtmoBlue]

Thanks Bill and Stever. I will make a recommendation to Fr. Dan Hendrickson to withdraw from the BE as we are not worthy in your esteemed opinions.

To be fair, VCU would have been a good addition to the reconfigured Big East. Very comparable to Creighton with the sole exception being VCU's great 2011 FF season. Agree with the overall sentiment that their basketball pedigree was not the deciding factor(s) for exclusion. In reviewing the 2012-13 media and reports Creighton was a solid 3rd candidate based upon their sustained success in (at that time) a top ten conference.

Creighton, while not as prolific nor as consistent as a Xavier, had been a model for many Midmajor level programs for building sustained longtermed success. "Johnny-come-lately"? Hardly the case Mr. Marsh.

Creighton- 13 NCAA tourneys since 1980. VCU- 15 NCAA tourneys since 1980. (CU- 19 overall NCAAs/10 NITs)
Creighton/VCU- Both 9 NCAAs since 2000.
Creighton- Since 2000 - 4 RS Championships/7 conference tourney Championships. (Overall- 19 RS/12 CT Championships)
VCU- Since 2000 - 5 RS Championships/ 6 conference tourney Championships.

Agree with Bill that with moving and shifting "arguments" being presented, most any viewpoint has some validity. However, it's a bit late for the "Jays are not worthy" lament. Especially given that any further expansion by the Big East will probably focus on outlier or leftover football five schools.

See ya...

[Bluejay]

Do you know who Kevin Rennie is? I wouldn't put any stock in that article.

I have a feeling you will immediately dismiss out of hand ANY article that talks about UConn dropping football.

[billyjack]

I think that back in 2013 when we started the VCU discussion, a key point was that the Colonial was a multi-bid conference for only 4 of its previous 30 seasons, whereas the Missouri Valley was multi-bid for like 18 of its previous 30... we compared winning vs Drexel and UNC Wilmington compared to Southern Illinois and Northern Iowa.

Also, from like 1998 til their Big East invitation, Creighton had double digit wins in the MVC each season and typically finished in the Top 3.

Of course over the last 4 years, VCU (and Dayton) has continued to play great ball, and it's happened in the A-10.

[Bill Marsh]

Do you know who Kevin Rennie is? I wouldn't put any stock in that article.

I have a feeling you will immediately dismiss out of hand ANY article that talks about UConn dropping football.

You're entitled to your opinion. And ai take the did in the spirit with which it's intended.

On a more serious note, it's obvious that you don't have a clue who Kevin Ronnie is. I can only give you information; you can do with it what you want. Kevin Ronnie wrote an op ed on the subject, which any citizen is entitled to do. Beyond providing his personal opinion on the matter, he is simply not a credible source for anyone who wants insight into the current state of planning for UConn athletics. He's a political gadfly and a complainer about almost anything in state government.

[Bill Marsh]

Thanks Bill and Stever. I will make a recommendation to Fr. Dan Hendrickson to withdraw from the BE as we are not worthy in your esteemed opinions.

Good one. I guess I deserved that.

To be fair, VCU would have been a good addition to the reconfigured Big East. Very comparable to Creighton with the sole exception being VCU's great 2011 FF season. Agree with the overall sentiment that their basketball pedigree was not the deciding factor(s) for exclusion. In reviewing the 2012-13 media and reports Creighton was a solid 3rd candidate based upon their sustained success in (at that time) a top ten conference.

Didn't mean to mislead with my comments. Creighton was an excellent choice. Nobody better. When we talk about fan support, a very important criterion, they were/are #1. Their performance on the court was only used as a point of comparison to legitimize VCU, not to disparage Creighton.

Creighton, while not as prolific nor as consistent as a Xavier, had been a model for many Midmajor level programs for building sustained longtermed success. "Johnny-come-lately"? Hardly the case Mr. Marsh.

I was flat out wrong with that comment. You're right to call me on it. My apologies.

Creighton- 13 NCAA tourneys since 1980. VCU- 15 NCAA tourneys since 1980. (CU- 19 overall NCAAs/10 NITs)
Creighton/VCU- Both 9 NCAAs since 2000.
Creighton- Since 2000 - 4 RS Championships/7 conference tourney Championships. (Overall- 19 RS/12 CT Championships)
VCU- Since 2000 - 5 RS Championships/ 6 conference tourney Championships.

Agree with Bill that with moving and shifting "arguments" being presented, most any viewpoint has some validity. However, it's a bit late for the "Jays are not worthy" lament. Especially given that any further expansion by the Big East will probably focus on outlier or leftover football five schools.

See ya...

It's sometimes hard to be clear on a message board. Never intended "Jays are not worthy." They most certainly were and are. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify that. The atmosphere at the Villanova game speaks volumes about what a great addition they have been.

Cheers to you . . .

[LMS]

You guys make it sound like the only factor is basketball. While it was clearly the most important factor, it wasn't the only one. Creighton also had the academic pedigree and commitment to other sports - notably high level soccer and volleyball.

Jays are a Top 10 program and the recruiting is just now picking up steam. Why is there an argument over this at all?