Non-Big East Conference Realignment Thread v. 2017

[stever20]

You are so fixated on VCU making it only once to the 2nd weekend.

So when did Creighton make it to the 2nd weekend in the open era? Answer is NEVER.

Bottom line, if VCU was private, they would have been in the Big East. It didn't have a damn thing to do with basketball at all whatsoever. Their basketball was plenty good enough.

And it's frankly IGNORANT to lump them in with schools like Boston U, Drake, Saint Louis, Detroit, Duquesne.

[Bill Marsh]

Deleted.

[Bill Marsh]

In 2 years (2019-2020 season) the ACC will expand to a 20 game conference schedule.
To preserve the round robin format, we would need to add 1 team for that schedule.
I can see Fox encouraging that to have a better content than the one OOC game they now might broadcast.

If that's the case, I hope there is one good team to add in 2019 that meets the current conference mold of institutions and correctly expands the market footprint.

There is. One.

[H.U.S.T.L.E.]

Addressing several points...

did he really just say that VCU has inconsistent/bad basketball? What planet have you been on? If VCU had been private, they would have been the 1st choice of the Big East when formed. Period the end.

Read what you just said again.

VCU not getting in back in 2013-14 means that either:

(1) VCU's status as a state school is a huge negative to the university presidents when determining Big East 2.0 institutional fit;
(2) VCU's basketball credentials (one trip to the second weekend in 43 seasons as a program) are not as strong as you might think they are;
(3) VCU does not command enough television eyeballs to be a valuable conference member; OR
(4) Some combination of the above.

You're going to the other extreme. By the standard of getting past the second round, Creighton doesn't belong in the BE either because it hasn't made it past the second round even once since the open tournament era began in 1975. VCU's consistency comes from the fact that they are always in the tournament - 9 times in the past 13 years with appearances in the '80's and '90's as well. When that kind of consistency is capped by a Final Four run, then that's a pretty special mid major program.

VCU is not Creighton (or Butler). They are UMass.

Much like UMass has never advanced past the first weekend with someone other than John Calipari at the helm, VCU has never advanced past the first weekend without someone named Shaka Smart at the helm.

Likewise, Butler (or Creighton, if you will), as a private school, are institutional fits with the Catholic 7. As discussed, this is just as important, if not more important, than recent basketball prowess. Even if VCU had gone on several deep tournament runs like Butler had (instead of just one) VCU, like UMass, would still be a state school, and thus, not an institutional fit for the Big East.

I've got no issues with the original post that puts VCU in the categories of "Non-Private School" and "Market Redundancy." But as a product that's "Inconsistent/Bad Basketball," that's just not the case especially when you compare it to the current Big East membership.

I grew up in Richmond, and while I'd love to see VCU in the Big East, I completely understand that there are reasons why they wouldn't be offered membership. The Richmond market isn't huge or gives you many more eyeballs. VCU has a large and passionate alumni base, but happens to be a public school.

I'm under no illusions that VCU would be added to the Big East, but to dismiss them for basketball reasons is silly. It's clearly the athletic department's first priority and they just opened an incredible basketball practice & training complex that's among the best in the country. They're committed, they've spent the money and it's obvious they would continue to do so at an even bigger level if the Big East came calling.

[Xudash]

did he really just say that VCU has inconsistent/bad basketball? What planet have you been on? If VCU had been private, they would have been the 1st choice of the Big East when formed. Period the end.

Also would really say Temple and Cincy have no business in that grouping at all whatsoever. And Dayton probably doesn't belong there either.

Oh, and you forgot St Bonnie's in that bad basketball grouping

You've had some not so award winning posts on this board in the past, but this one takes the cake. Xavier and Butler were first in and would have been first in even had VCU been a private university. Oh, and "period, end of story."

I have to assume if it is true you are honestly a fan of Georgetown, that you actually don't hold a degree from that fine school. Critical thinking as acquired through a Jesuit education clearly isn't part of your personal software load.

This isn't about badmouthing VCU. But to think that VCU's program was ahead of Xavier's program or Butler's program at the time of the conference's formation is DUMB.

[scoscox]

I don't see how I'm going to an extreme by pointing out facts. I think you guys are still way off the mark here.

Xavier had only been past the second round once before 2004 and then they rattled off six NCAA runs in the last decade. Even then we'd been going to the tournament virtually every year since 1983. Xavier was, bar none, the most consistent mid-major program in the country and had proved to be so under 5 different head coaches.

Butler had been making the tournament consistently since the mid 90's and then had both of their runs, still significantly more consistent and successful than VCU by a considerable margin.

Creighton is more of an argument, but Creighton had been dominating their conference and going to the tournament consistently since the late 90's. VCU has only found consistent success as recently as 2011.

VCU is starting to show a strong commitment under Will Wade and their recent spate of coaches is encouraging (Jeff Capel, Anthony Grant, Shaka, Wade). I see a lot of similarities between them and the Xavier program in the mid 90's. To say they personify inconsistent and bad basketball is obviously not true, but then to say VCU would have been the first choice for the Big East period end of story is laughable and belittles what the programs the Big East added had been doing for decades.

In response to H.U.S.T.L.E., so EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM. you listed has done it more than once and, more to the point, Butler has done it 5 times and Xavier 7. The Big East added it's third and fourth most successful programs, with regard to that metric, with those additions. VCU would be added as it's least successful program according to that metric. I'm only saying that Stever vaulting VCU over Xavier, Butler, and Creighton is to ignore the actual accomplishments of each program and I was trying to put that in perspective. I realize it's a difficult accomplishment. Pointing this out only amplifies the gulf between those numbers. To put VCU's success on par with Xavier or Butler is insulting to those programs. It's nothing against VCU. Perhaps a better word would be "unproven". I agree they have been pretty consistent for the better part of a decade as far as being a tournament team.

In response to Fieldhouse Flyer... yea, all of what you just posted is exactly what I'm talking about. That is a grand total of 8 tournament appearances in 28 years. That's not a really great model of consistency.

"Archie Miller has won 5 NCAA Tournament games in the past 3 seasons, and it appears that he will remain at Dayton for a number of years to come." - Archie is consistently talked about as one of the top candidates for open jobs every offseason, so this seems like wishful thinking.

Look, I granted you that they had been better under Archie and I really don't have anything against Dayton. If they were to prove themselves a worthy addition, I'd gladly welcome them, but that is not yet the case. I'd suggest taking the "be so good they cant ignore you" route and let the team do your talking.

[Bill Marsh]

Addressing several points.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the time you put into it. I also appreciate the Joe Pesci pic. Love that movie and his acting in it!

The real question is not what the Big East wants, but what Fox wants because without the Fox money, the Big East is in a whole different world. If Fox comes to the BE presidents and says that a bigger audience is required for the relationship to continue, the presidents will vote to expand. And they will suddenly become very open to candidates proposed by Fox. Unless of course they can find another interested network or the whole media model changes, which is certainly possible.

I would pay money to be present in the Fox Sports offices when it is suggested that FS1 can only grow by getting more people to tune in to a Wednesday night Big East doubleheader featuring Villanova stomping Boston U. by 40 points, followed by a nightcap of VCU vs. DePaul.



If them's the desperate straits that FS1 is in, the Big East should start looking for a new TV partner anyway.

You and I both know that BU isn't in the conversation unless they do what the other BU did, so let's not go there. Would the Fox execs be interested in broadcasting Villanova vs VCU? You bet they would. The problem with your VCU-DePaul example was not VCU but current member DePaul.

The more interesting conversation for which I'd like to be a fly on the wall is when the Fox execs propose Gonzaga. They check every box that the BE presidents value and their geography isn't a hardship for anyone except Gonzaga themselves. GU has said from day one that they can live with the hardship.

As for looking for a new TV partner, we first have to assume that there is one.

did he really just say that VCU has inconsistent/bad basketball? What planet have you been on? If VCU had been private, they would have been the 1st choice of the Big East when formed. Period the end.

Read what you just said again.

VCU not getting in back in 2013-14 means that either:

(1) VCU's status as a state school is a huge negative to the university presidents when determining Big East 2.0 institutional fit;
(2) VCU's basketball credentials (one trip to the second weekend in 43 seasons as a program) are not as strong as you might think they are;
(3) VCU does not command enough television eyeballs to be a valuable conference member; OR
(4) Some combination of the above.

Or it means that they were a very acceptable #11 at a time when there were only 10 slots. We really don't know. But whatever the objection was, that objection might quickly fade away if Fox made Them an offer they couldn't refuse.

You're going to the other extreme. By the standard of getting past the second round, Creighton doesn't belong in the BE either because it hasn't made it past the second round even once since the open tournament era began in 1975. VCU's consistency comes from the fact that they are always in the tournament - 9 times in the past 13 years with appearances in the '80's and '90's as well. When that kind of consistency is capped by a Final Four run, then that's a pretty special mid major program.

VCU is not Creighton (or Butler). They are UMass.

Much like UMass has never advanced past the first weekend with someone other than John Calipari at the helm, VCU has never advanced past the first weekend without someone named Shaka Smart at the helm.

Likewise, Butler (or Creighton, if you will), as a private school, are institutional fits with the Catholic 7. As discussed, this is just as important, if not more important, than recent basketball prowess. Even if VCU had gone on several deep tournament runs like Butler had (instead of just one) VCU, like UMass, would still be a state school, and thus, not an institutional fit for the Big East.

Yes, you're right, VCU is not Creighton. Creighton has not advanced past the first weekend even once in the past 42 years while VCU has. But you're wrong about VCU being UMass. Your analogy breaks down when the view is expanded beyond the Final Four. UMass has made only ONE tournament in the last 42 years under a coach not named John Calipari. And they've had more than 15 years of failure to prove that they are not building on the Calipari legacy. VCU has been to NINE tournaments since 1980 under a coach not named Shaka Smart. They are only in their 2nd season since Smart left, but they went back to the tournament in their only opportunity, winning their first round game and showing that the Smart legacy is alive and well. If we look beyond the Sweet 16 criterion, we also see their upset of Duke in the 2007 tournament, that they're one of only 8 teams to make the tournament for the last 6 years in a row, and the only team besides Kansas to win 24+ games a year for the past 10 years. VCU put up that 10 year streak under 3 different coaches, one of many indicators that they are a successful program and not just a creation of Shaka.

Your other comments about VCU's lack of fit are all true, but my objection was specifically directed to the comment about ruling them out for failing to advance past the first weekend. Nothing about their fit changes that objection.

[stever20]

Creighton dominating their conference since the late 90's?

Creighton- made tourney 1999-2003, 2005, 2007, 12-13
VCU- made tourney 2004,2007,2009, and 11-13
I'd hardly call Creighton going to the tourney consistently since late 90's. From 2004-11 they made the tourney twice. Meanwhile, same period VCU made the tourney 4 times, including final 4 spot.

Creighton with 2 wins in those trips
VCU with 8 wins in those trips.

I'll give you that Butler and Xavier ahead of VCU. But VCU IMO was ahead of Creighton.

Then you get the footprint. VCU would have fit the footprint like a glove. Much more than an outlier like Creighton.

The public/private thing was the ONLY thing that kept VCU out. If Richmond basketball had the resume of VCU, they would have been in 100% guaranteed.

I think you could make the argument that the league would have gone to 12 from the start. Taken a flyer on SLU, hoping that them getting in would have helped recruiting from the get go.

[H.U.S.T.L.E.]

In response to H.U.S.T.L.E., so EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM. you listed has done it more than once and, more to the point, Butler has done it 5 times and Xavier 7. The Big East added it's third and fourth most successful programs, with regard to that metric, with those additions. VCU would be added as it's least successful program according to that metric. I'm only saying that Stever vaulting VCU over Xavier, Butler, and Creighton is to ignore the actual accomplishments of each program and I was trying to put that in perspective. I realize it's a difficult accomplishment. Pointing this out only amplifies the gulf between those numbers. To put VCU's success on par with Xavier or Butler is insulting to those programs. It's nothing against VCU. Perhaps a better word would be "unproven". I agree they have been pretty consistent for the better part of a decade as far as being a tournament team.

I pointed each one out to show that they weren't that far off the mark in the grand scheme of things.

And sure, Butler had done it 5 times in program history - but that also included the two years in a row they made the title game in 2010 and 2011. So before that, Butler had accomplished that achievement 3 times over the course of program history. Keep in mind, VCU has only had a basketball program since 1968, while the first time Butler won two games in the NCAA Tournament was, get this... 1962. They didn't even make the tournament again until 1997! By that point, VCU already had six tournament appearances. The next time Butler won two games in the tournament? 2003.

So really, what I should have pointed out even more is that RECENT success is what vaulted someone like Butler into the new Big East. And their recent success isn't that different than VCU's situation, other than Butler's high point included two straight back-to-back national title appearances (which obviously ranks higher than VCU's accomplishment, no arguments there).

Again, I clearly understand the reasons why Butler & Xavier were chosen over VCU. It's got far less to do with basketball ability though, and it's a little frustrating to see people minimize that when you take a closer look at things. Bill and I are in agreement here.

[FDS]

VCU plays awful Gimmick Ball... can we enjoy the Big East for the awesomeness it is?! Instead people keep lobbying for their crappy teams on a Big East message board, dreaming of a day when they can water the Big East down?

If you are a fan of a non-Big East team... why not spend your time and energy lobbying your school's administration rather than coming on here talking about non-Big East teams.

...In the middle of a fantastic season and these people want to talk about this crap... awful.