Non-Big East Conference Realignment Thread v. 2017

[Bill Marsh]

did he really just say that VCU has inconsistent/bad basketball? What planet have you been on? If VCU had been private, they would have been the 1st choice of the Big East when formed. Period the end.

Also would really say Temple and Cincy have no business in that grouping at all whatsoever. And Dayton probably doesn't belong there either.

Oh, and you forgot St Bonnie's in that bad basketball grouping

Dayton hasn't exactly been the model of consistency, but agree totally about Temple and UC. Way off the mark on VCU though. The 2011 tournament was the first and only time they've ever made it past the second round. Giving them more credit than they deserve there.

You're going to the other extreme. By the standard of getting past the second round, Creighton doesn't belong in the BE either because it hasn't made it past the second round even once since the open tournament era began in 1975. VCU's consistency comes from the fact that they are always in the tournament - 9 times in the past 13 years with appearances in the '80's and '90's as well. When that kind of consistency is capped by a Final Four run, then that's a pretty special mid major program.

[HoosierPal]

Posted in the old thread and re-posted here for the record.

There are, at present time, no programs that have all of the following five traits:
1.) Institutional fit (meaning a private, non-FBS school).
2.) Consistent, high-level basketball (defined as consistent conference titles and/or NCAA Tournament appearances).
3.) Geographic fit (i.e., the Northeastern quarter of the country from the Atlantic Ocean to the banks of the Missouri River).
4.) New Markets (i.e., they give the Big East something that the league doesn't already have with another program).
5.) Has never backstabbed/sold out the Big East.

You do realize that the Missouri River stretches from Missouri to Montana, through Nebraska and the Dakotas. Not sure what is out in the norther plains that entices you.

[Bluejay]

Saint Louis fans discussing whether or not their team is the worst ever, some projecting only 4 wins this year.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.ph ... eam-since/

SLU has won as many NCAA Tournament games in their history (since 1952) as Villanova won last spring.

SLU ---> awful

Agreed, SLU is so disappointing. I used to think it was Biodi holding them back, but he's gone now.

Ford is recruiting well. Whether he can get things turned around is another matter though.

If SLU didn't suck so bad, they would be a perfect fit - huge town, fertile recruiting base, private, outstanding academics, etc. The Jesuit aspect makes them a twin to Creighton, Xavier and Marquette.

In a lot of ways, SLU has become like Duquesne or Detroit Mercy. So much potential, but just can't get things headed in the right direction. I don't know if it is because of a lack of administration buy-in or some other force, but it just seems like those schools should be so much better.

[Hall2012]

Posted in the old thread and re-posted here for the record.

There are, at present time, no programs that have all of the following five traits:
1.) Institutional fit (meaning a private, non-FBS school).
2.) Consistent, high-level basketball (defined as consistent conference titles and/or NCAA Tournament appearances).
3.) Geographic fit (i.e., the Northeastern quarter of the country from the Atlantic Ocean to the banks of the Missouri River).
4.) New Markets (i.e., they give the Big East something that the league doesn't already have with another program).
5.) Has never backstabbed/sold out the Big East.

You do realize that the Missouri River stretches from Missouri to Montana, through Nebraska and the Dakotas. Not sure what is out in the norther plains that entices you.

I'm assuming he mean Mississippi River, which only Creighton is west of.

[H.U.S.T.L.E.]

did he really just say that VCU has inconsistent/bad basketball? What planet have you been on? If VCU had been private, they would have been the 1st choice of the Big East when formed. Period the end.

Also would really say Temple and Cincy have no business in that grouping at all whatsoever. And Dayton probably doesn't belong there either.

Oh, and you forgot St Bonnie's in that bad basketball grouping

Dayton hasn't exactly been the model of consistency, but agree totally about Temple and UC. Way off the mark on VCU though. The 2011 tournament was the first and only time they've ever made it past the second round. Giving them more credit than they deserve there.

I think calling VCU "inconsistent" for only advancing past the second round once is still off the mark though. Bill pointed out Creighton only doing it twice, but let's take a comprehensive look.

Before Butler made the national title game two consecutive years, they'd only made it past the second round 3 times. They haven't done it since joining the Big East. Xavier has a little more history, having done it 7 times (with one of those coming since joining the Big East).

How about the Catholic 7 teams advancing past the second round? For the purposes of this exercise, let's only use appearances after 1979, when the original Big East was formed.

DePaul - 2
Georgetown - 11
Marquette - 5
Providence - 2
Seton Hall - 4
St. John's - 3
Villanova - 9

How about if we just go from 2011, the year VCU did it? The list is Butler (the year they beat VCU in the Final Four), Marquette (3 times), Villanova (1 time, last year), and Xavier (2 times).

It's not an easy accomplishment, so to diminish a team for having done it "only once" is silly. I agree with him in that you have to look at consistency of making the tournament, and in that regard they have been excellent over the last decade.

[Fieldhouse Flyer]

Dayton hasn't exactly been the model of consistency.

Posted on Page 3 of the 2016-17 RPI Rankings thread:

Dayton is always too up and down.

The RPI Rankings for the past four seasons (including this one) suggest otherwise.

3-Year Average Final RPI Ranking - Team ( 2013-14 Final RPI Ranking • 2014-15 Final RPI Ranking • 2015-16 Final RPI Ranking )

29 - Dayton ( 33 • 29 • 25 )

UDPride RPI Rankings – Thursday morning, January 5th:

29 - Dayton

I did also say they've been better under Archie, but that is very recent. Dayton through Brian Gregory and Oliver Purnell and others could never consistently put it together. I'm not prepared to forgive the program those many years of inconsistency and floundering for the recent few years of archie's success. Just the way I see it. X had solid success for about 25 years before breaking in, I'd like to see a larger sample size.

Here you go:

Dayton Flyers Season-by-Season Results (1903-2016), NCAA Tournament Appearances, and NIT Appearances

Tom Blackburn • 17 seasons 1948-1964 • W-L 352–141 (.714) • 1 NCAA • 10 NITs • (Died while head coach.)

Don Donoher • 25 seasons 1964-1989 • W-L 437-275 (.613) • 9 NCAAs • 6 NITs • (Fired.)

Jim O'Brien • 4 seasons 1989-1994 • W-L 61–87 (.412) • 1 NCAA • 0 NIT • (Fired.)

Oliver Purnell • 9 seasons 1994-2003 • W-L 155–116 (.572) • 2 NCAAs • 3 NITs • (Accepted offer from Clemson.)

Brian Gregory • 8 seasons 2003-2011 • W-L 172–94 (.647) • 2 NCAAs • 3 NITs • (Accepted offer from Georgia Tech.)

Archie Miller • 5.47 seasons 2011-Present • W-L 126–58 (.685) • 3 NCAAs • 1 NIT • (Present contract extended through 2024.)

Summary:

Yrs. • Head Coach ... • W-L • Avg W-Avg L

17 • Tom Blackburn ... • 352-141 • 20.7-8.3
25 • Don Donoher ..... • 437-275 • 17.5-11.0
4 • Jim O'Brien ........ • 61-87 • 15.3-21.8
9 • Oliver Purnell ..... • 155-116 • 17.2-12.9
8 • Brian Gregory ..... • 172-94 • 21.5-11.8
5.47 • Archie Miller .. • 126-58 • 23.0-10.6

Archie Miller has won 5 NCAA Tournament games in the past 3 seasons, and it appears that he will remain at Dayton for a number of years to come.

The Summary table above shows Dayton has consistently improved under each coach since Jim O’Brien was fired in 1994 – some 23 years ago.

[paulxu]

In 2 years (2019-2020 season) the ACC will expand to a 20 game conference schedule.
To preserve the round robin format, we would need to add 1 team for that schedule.
I can see Fox encouraging that to have a better content than the one OOC game they now might broadcast.

If that's the case, I hope there is one good team to add in 2019 that meets the current conference mold of institutions and correctly expands the market footprint.

[BigEast1]

Just posted this in the "Wednesday BE games" thread but it seems more appropriate for this one:

I was at the St. John's - Creighton game last night and I have to say the atmosphere in the building was electric. The fans were amped even with the early deficit. I spoke to some of the Creighton players in the lobby after the game & told them how much of a great addition they've been to the conference. Same goes with Xavier & Butler. SJU is clearly turning the corner & this league has tremendous potential. I hope people finally stop talking about expansion. We get to play everyone twice, will most likely be sending 50 to 60% of the league to the NCAA every year (I wouldn't rule out 7 teams in the future if things break right) and most importantly, we no longer have to deal with football schools looking to leave. Lets sit back & enjoy the ride of what should be a great Jan & Feb of league play. Can't even imagine what the Big East Tournament will be like this year.

[notkirkcameron]

Addressing several points.

I'm assuming he mean Mississippi River, which only Creighton is west of.

I actually did mean Missouri, so as to include Creighton. It's fair to say that Big East member Creighton is within the Big East's footprint.

So, Kirk, you're saying that if BU, Fordham, Richmond, Dayton, or St Louis pulled a Butler and went to a bunch of tournaments for a decade or so, including 2 finals, they wouldn't be considered for the reasons you stated?

Lotta ifs in that sentence.

BTW, who did you have in mind when you mentioned backstabbing the Big East?

You know who they are, and they know who they are.

In order for Wake or Duke to become available, the ACC would have to disband since neither of them are voluntarily leaving that conference. With the instability in the Big XII, I don't see any way that the ACC is at risk of collapsing. Same for Norte Dame, who is far more likely to bring their football into the ACC than to leave.

Ummm....Didn't I....?

Adding any of those three schools would require, as a prerequisite, a heretofore unforeseen titanic shift in the college sports landscape.

Nevermind.

The real question is not what the Big East wants, but what Fox wants because without the Fox money, the Big East is in a whole different world. If Fox comes to the BE presidents and says that a bigger audience is required for the relationship to continue, the presidents will vote to expand. And they will suddenly become very open to candidates proposed by Fox. Unless of course they can find another interested network or the whole media model changes, which is certainly possible.

I would pay money to be present in the Fox Sports offices when it is suggested that FS1 can only grow by getting more people to tune in to a Wednesday night Big East doubleheader featuring Villanova stomping Boston U. by 40 points, followed by a nightcap of VCU vs. DePaul.



If them's the desperate straits that FS1 is in, the Big East should start looking for a new TV partner anyway.

did he really just say that VCU has inconsistent/bad basketball? What planet have you been on? If VCU had been private, they would have been the 1st choice of the Big East when formed. Period the end.

Read what you just said again.

VCU not getting in back in 2013-14 means that either:

(1) VCU's status as a state school is a huge negative to the university presidents when determining Big East 2.0 institutional fit;
(2) VCU's basketball credentials (one trip to the second weekend in 43 seasons as a program) are not as strong as you might think they are;
(3) VCU does not command enough television eyeballs to be a valuable conference member; OR
(4) Some combination of the above.

You're going to the other extreme. By the standard of getting past the second round, Creighton doesn't belong in the BE either because it hasn't made it past the second round even once since the open tournament era began in 1975. VCU's consistency comes from the fact that they are always in the tournament - 9 times in the past 13 years with appearances in the '80's and '90's as well. When that kind of consistency is capped by a Final Four run, then that's a pretty special mid major program.

VCU is not Creighton (or Butler). They are UMass.

Much like UMass has never advanced past the first weekend with someone other than John Calipari at the helm, VCU has never advanced past the first weekend without someone named Shaka Smart at the helm.

Likewise, Butler (or Creighton, if you will), as a private school, are institutional fits with the Catholic 7. As discussed, this is just as important, if not more important, than recent basketball prowess. Even if VCU had gone on several deep tournament runs like Butler had (instead of just one) VCU, like UMass, would still be a state school, and thus, not an institutional fit for the Big East.

[Edrick]

That feels like a mic drop.