Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[stever20]

Any expansion means the end of the round-robin, which means "Goodbye" to the home and home matchups this season of Xavier/Providence, Vilanova/Xavier and Villanova/Providence (not to mention really exciting other home/home games thus far that haven't included the top-10). And there are "fans" that want to end that so as not just to add a school like St. Bonaventure, but maybe perhaps get another school into the tournament come March?

GLADLY. Yes, I would give up one of those DePaul - 'Dawg match-ups in a "New York minute'". Seton Hall doesn't bring much buzz to the Midwest either. No round robin works just fine for every other major conference so why not the Big East?

So you would rather see the Demons twice a year than have one, two or three more teams in the NCAA? Give me 14 teams....St. Louis, Dayton, Richmond and someone else. Not hung up on the 'geographic balance' nor the 'what have you done for me lately' that is so popular to some on this board. Give me markets that like hoops. I said it on another thread, anything that maximizes Butler's chance to get to the NCAA's is good.

You realize it is just as likely that you would be giving up a second game with Nova etc. in order to play SLU and DePaul twice?

Not really. The conference would ensure that the teams that were projected to be good got to play each other 2x. So you can bet anything that Nova and Butler would see each other 2x. Lets just say it wouldn't be random in who played who 2x.

[DudeAnon]

GLADLY. Yes, I would give up one of those DePaul - 'Dawg match-ups in a "New York minute'". Seton Hall doesn't bring much buzz to the Midwest either. No round robin works just fine for every other major conference so why not the Big East?

So you would rather see the Demons twice a year than have one, two or three more teams in the NCAA? Give me 14 teams....St. Louis, Dayton, Richmond and someone else. Not hung up on the 'geographic balance' nor the 'what have you done for me lately' that is so popular to some on this board. Give me markets that like hoops. I said it on another thread, anything that maximizes Butler's chance to get to the NCAA's is good.

You realize it is just as likely that you would be giving up a second game with Nova etc. in order to play SLU and DePaul twice?

Not really. The conference would ensure that the teams that were projected to be good got to play each other 2x. So you can bet anything that Nova and Butler would see each other 2x. Lets just say it wouldn't be random in who played who 2x.

Its an imprecise art that at its best creates a two-tier conference. At its worst, its awful.

Take a look at Dayton's schedule in the 14 member A-10. Here are the juggernauts they see twice: Duquesne, La Salle, St. Bonnies, Saint Louis and Rhode Island. Meanwhile, they missed out on: Davidson, GW, VCU, St. Josephs, UMASS and Richmond.

Dayton is arguably their best school and I could easily argue they have the exact opposite schedule you would hope for.

[stever20]

What the A10 is doing is pure mid-major. Trying to pump up their teams with as many wins as possible....

What major conferences do is the logic that the AAC is using....
SMU, Cincy, UConn, and Tulsa all play each other 2x. If you add Temple to those 4- all play each other 2x except SMU and Temple miss each other a 2nd time. That's what the Big East would do. Trying to get the best matchups possible for TV and also limiting the impacts of weaker teams.

[HoosierPal]

You realize it is just as likely that you would be giving up a second game with Nova etc. in order to play SLU and DePaul twice?

Not really. The conference would ensure that the teams that were projected to be good got to play each other 2x. So you can bet anything that Nova and Butler would see each other 2x. Lets just say it wouldn't be random in who played who 2x.

Its an imprecise art that at its best creates a two-tier conference. At its worst, its awful.

Take a look at Dayton's schedule in the 14 member A-10. Here are the juggernauts they see twice: Duquesne, La Salle, St. Bonnies, Saint Louis and Rhode Island. Meanwhile, they missed out on: Davidson, GW, VCU, St. Josephs, UMASS and Richmond.

Dayton is arguably their best school and I could easily argue they have the exact opposite schedule you would hope for.

And they make the NCAA every year and they sell out every home game.

[DudeAnon]

And they make the NCAA every year and they sell out every home game.

Both of those statements are wrong lol

[DudeAnon]

What the A10 is doing is pure mid-major. Trying to pump up their teams with as many wins as possible....

What major conferences do is the logic that the AAC is using....
SMU, Cincy, UConn, and Tulsa all play each other 2x. If you add Temple to those 4- all play each other 2x except SMU and Temple miss each other a 2nd time. That's what the Big East would do. Trying to get the best matchups possible for TV and also limiting the impacts of weaker teams.

AAC only has 11 teams and a pretty clearly defined 1st and 2nd tier. Once you go to 12 and beyond it gets harder. Not too mention, its just hard to predict which teams will be good sometimes. Butler has gone from bottom tier, to upper tier, and now possibly bottom again. So far I think the only teams that have been reliable are X, Nova and Providence. Everyone else seems bi-polar.

[stever20]

What the A10 is doing is pure mid-major. Trying to pump up their teams with as many wins as possible....

What major conferences do is the logic that the AAC is using....
SMU, Cincy, UConn, and Tulsa all play each other 2x. If you add Temple to those 4- all play each other 2x except SMU and Temple miss each other a 2nd time. That's what the Big East would do. Trying to get the best matchups possible for TV and also limiting the impacts of weaker teams.

AAC only has 11 teams and a pretty clearly defined 1st and 2nd tier. Once you go to 12 and beyond it gets harder. Not too mention, its just hard to predict which teams will be good sometimes. Butler has gone from bottom tier, to upper tier, and now possibly bottom again. So far I think the only teams that have been reliable are X, Nova and Providence. Everyone else seems bi-polar.

With 12 teams you get 7 teams 2x.

What you definitely can't say is what Warrior said that if we expand to 12, we can say goodbye to the home and home matchups this season of Xavier/Providence, Villanova/Xavier, and Villanova/Providence- because those matchups would be almost guaranteed to have been home and home if the conference was at 12.

[Bill Marsh]

No expansion!! The formula is working!!

It is? Explain how.

For Nova, I’m sure it’s great. For Marquette, Creighton and Georgetown it is not. For Hall, it was terrible last year and check back in a month on this season.


You’ve got SEVEN NCAA caliber programs this year, and at least two are gonna be left out. Once again, you’re wailing the tar out of each other for no good reason other than “double-round robin is fun.”

Look at what each team team 4-7 needs to do in their remaining games to feel safe for an NCAA bid.
It adds up to about 23-12 for four teams. The best the bottom three can do for you is 3-25, leaving 17-16 for three Top 20 teams that are 21-7 so far. How likely is that? Not at all.

Seven bids is a pipe dream. For six bids you need:

Georgetown, Butler and Seton Hall to go 16-10 or better. But they have 10 games against each other, and they will go 5-5.
Sweep 8 games vs the bottom four (who’ve beaten them three times already) and they need 2-5 vs the Top 3, when they are 2-9 so far. And even then, Georgetown is 13-10 on the year and only has two games vs the bottom four left, and five games vs the Top 4 of the league.

So you’re looking at five bids… IF Georgetown, Marquette and Creighton cooperate and lose to Hall and Butler; who’ve already lost three times to those guys.

You see what I’m getting at? 3rd and 8th in the Big East are separated by two games.
The 7th and 8th place teams are just as post-season caliber as 5th and 6th, the only difference is how they all do in their FOURTEEN GAMES against NCAA caliber teams in conference.



Let’s look at Butler and the nameless team right behind them in the RPI. If both teams lose their games to NCAA locks, split vs NCAA bubble teams (home wins), win out against 75+ teams…

Butler is looking at 4-5, 6 seed at BET (likely vs 3 PC who’s beat them twice) = 19-13 projected RPI 68-75
Nameless team is looking at 7-3, 5 seed at Tourney (vs 4 seed they beat at home) = 22-11 or 21-11 projected RPI of 43-51.

And every single one of you thinks Butler would wipe the floor with that nameless team. And I kinda agree.

JP, from reading your stuff, I can only conclude that you are a professional con man in the real world. You have consistently pushed the argument that the BE is capped at 6 bids in a 10 team league when they could get to 7-8 bids in a 12 team league.

Why is 7 of 12 better than 6 of 10?

It isn't. 6 of 10 = 60%. 7 of 12 = 58%.

8 of 12 (66%) is only fractionally better than 6 of 10, so no big gain there either.

Your con is based on the proposition that the BE should add Bona and another A10 school, both of whom would simply roll over for BE opponents so that more of the current membership would benefit. That is of course complete nonsense and only a con man would expect anyone to buy it. The 1-2 extra bids could just as easily go to the new teams, meaning no new bids for current members since the new members, now with increased resources, would compete as hard as they could to benefit from the new affiliation.

It's the old bait and switch. Take in the Sisters of the Poor so we can become doormats, only to find that this same Trojan Horse wants to kick our butts after they get inside the walls.

What you've ignored is the increased difficulty in rising to the top with increasing numbers. All of us Big East fans experienced that. When. There were 7-9 members in the '80's, PC and SH could both rise from the bottom to reach the F4 within the first decade of league competition. No one was locked in as a bottom feeder.

However, as the league grew to 12-16 members, it became a 2-tiered conference and it was next to impossible for those in the lower half to become competitive with those in the upper half. No one wants to go back to that. It's why so many are enamored with the idea of staying at 10. It's simply more competitive that way.

To make your proposition that it's a virtual mathematic impossibility for the 10 member BE to get 7 bids, you make this proposal following on the heels of a 2015 tournament in which 7 of the 10 member B12 actually got bids. In light of that reality, why do you think that anyone would actually buy your argument?

[HoosierPal]

And they make the NCAA every year and they sell out every home game.

Both of those statements are wrong lol

Last statement on Dayton, as they have been covered way too much on this board, but they are outdrawing every Big East team except Creighton. You may not like Dayton, but recognize them for what they are, a quality program with passionate fans.

[Xudash]

Any expansion means the end of the round-robin, which means "Goodbye" to the home and home matchups this season of Xavier/Providence, Vilanova/Xavier and Villanova/Providence (not to mention really exciting other home/home games thus far that haven't included the top-10). And there are "fans" that want to end that so as not just to add a school like St. Bonaventure, but maybe perhaps get another school into the tournament come March?

GLADLY. Yes, I would give up one of those DePaul - 'Dawg match-ups in a "New York minute'". Seton Hall doesn't bring much buzz to the Midwest either. No round robin works just fine for every other major conference so why not the Big East?

So you would rather see the Demons twice a year than have one, two or three more teams in the NCAA? Give me 14 teams....St. Louis, Dayton, Richmond and someone else. Not hung up on the 'geographic balance' nor the 'what have you done for me lately' that is so popular to some on this board. Give me markets that like hoops. I said it on another thread, anything that maximizes Butler's chance to get to the NCAA's is good.

Big East President's Board Meeting Minutes
Some Date In The Future

.... and now for the last item on the agenda.

Mr. Danko took a strong position on not wanting to have to play DePaul twice per year in our round robin format any longer, and otherwise believes the Big East should be comprised of 14 conference members, not 10. General discussion moved away from focusing on playing any particular member school to the idea of expansion.

The other Presidents noted that there is no basis for Fox normalizing its existing agreement to keep all members at their existing annual payout rates should expansion to a 14-member conference take place, and that there are no formal guaranties in place to do the same even if the Big East were to expand to 12 teams.

Mr. Danko was asked if Butler would be amenable to sharing its existing media rights distribution with the expansion schools, while the other 9 existing members would remain at their existing $4.1 million annual distributions. Mr. Danko suggested the topic be closed and that the Board break for lunch.