Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[marquette]

I approved the above post by murphy because I find it funny. Among the many reasons, We have several schools with a higher enrollment than UD, we have several with higher endowments, we have several with a higher ratio of endowment dollars to # students, most of us have newer arenas, nicer practice facilities, lower acceptance rates, higher rankings (whether regional or national), better exposure, huge capital projects that are funded primarily through donor dollars (see Georgetown's John Thompson Center, Creighton's new practice facility, Xavier's Cintas Center, Nova's renovations to the Pavillion, Seton Hall's new medical school, PC's new practice facility, take your pick from MU's $85 million law school/$31 million practice facility/$120 million upcoming athletics performance research center and indoor field house/ $11 million Jesuit residence/etc.) Dayton's basketball budget would fall very close to the bottom of the Big East, it is less than half of the budgets of several of our members. Suffice it to say we are not impressed. The fact that the NCAA sees fit to play the least watched and least important leg of the tournament in Dayton isn't something I see as a particularly large benefit. I couldn't have told you where it was played until Dayton posters started coming here bragging about it.

UD is a nice school in a decent but stereotypical smaller midwest town. It has a decent basketball history but nothing so spectacular that our member schools are desperate to associate with them. UD, on the other hand, would play the rest of the season as an independent against DII schools if it would get them an invite to the BE for next year.

i am not sure why the XU fans are trying to convince me or the vast majority of UD fans that they need to join the BE. I can tell you that if you polled the long time UD season holders and the admin the vote would be vastly in favor of staying in the A10. Why would UD want to lose control? There is no financial need to change, UD is financially set for the long haul and more. The BE has become the FOX networks (sports and news and entertainment divisions) property, with all that baggage associated with it. Yes the BE is interesting to many UD fans as many of these schools have a long history of playing UD expecially XU Depaul, Marquette, even VU, and SHU, and SJU from the 50 and 60s, It is just not worth it in the long run. We are lovin where we are at, everything is good, why change?

I'm not trying to convince you or any other UD fan of anything. I was at one point a proponent of expansion, less so now. My post was more about pointing out the irony of you coming here, to a Big East board, a conference in which you have no interest, to brag about all the reasons we should want you but you're already dating the quarterback so too bad. This while lacking any basic awareness of general donor and building trends among big time schools. It's all very interesting.

[SCS]

*Yawn* Both Dayton and Xavier are mediocre schools.

[Masterofreality]

Fenway, it is bazaar isn't it. All I can say is it won't go beyond this expansion thread as far as I'm concerned. And if I'm pissing people off just say the word and I'm gone. But its fun to have a team "you love to hate" and I say that with all respect.

Is it bazaar- as if we are shopping in an open air market, for a new conference possibly, or bizarre as in strange?

What I think is, your Dayton mis-education is showing through. Yes, let's let that bastion of advanced thinking in the league.

[UD Flyer Fanatic]

Bizarre as in strange my Xavier friend. I've otherwise let my feelings on conference affiliation be known.

[pki1998]

i am not sure why the XU fans are trying to convince me or the vast majority of UD fans that they need to join the BE. I can tell you that if you polled the long time UD season holders and the admin the vote would be vastly in favor of staying in the A10. Why would UD want to lose control? There is no financial need to change, UD is financially set for the long haul and more. The BE has become the FOX networks (sports and news and entertainment divisions) property, with all that baggage associated with it. Yes the BE is interesting to many UD fans as many of these schools have a long history of playing UD expecially XU Depaul, Marquette, even VU, and SHU, and SJU from the 50 and 60s, It is just not worth it in the long run. We are lovin where we are at, everything is good, why change?

I haven't seen any XU fans trying to convince you that UD needs to join the Big East. I have seen many trying to convince UD fans that they have no chance of every joining the Big East. I can also say that you come off in the same way as some one who got rejected by the hot girl, and then starts talking crap about her. I encourage level headed UD fans like UD Flyer Fanatic to post here. While I don't agree with everything he says, he is a gentlemen and conducts himself appropriately. UD fans like you and ohiohsbball who come here and are disrespectful of the Big East only makes the Fan Base of UD look bad. Although I will give you credit, you at least admit that you are a UD fan, ohiohsbball can't even do that. Now lets get to the "points in your argument"

1) UD is better off in the A-10. In certain ways this argument is true. The A-10 is depleted and is in need of a new flagship. I say depleted because an A-10 without Xavier and Temple is has dropped a peg. Adding a VCU helps but does not make up for the fact, that there is less competition in the A-10. Dayton has the resources, and the coach (Finally) that can help them become the top dog in the A-10. Doesn't mean they will, I am still waiting for their first regular season conference title. And yes I realize that you had three A-10 west championships but the East champion always had the better record and you shared one of those with Xavier. That's right Dayton has been in a conference since 1988 and has not ever been the best team in their conference. As such staying in a watered down A-10 will give the Flyers a easier path to the NCAA's. Maybe its me, but I don't want the easy path. I want to stand toe to toe with the Blue Bloods of the game and see if X can beat them.

2) The majority of UD season ticket holders don't want to be in the Big East? Are you kidding me. Would you rather go see games versus your traditional rivals (DePaul, Marquette, Xavier) traditional blue bloods (Georgetown, St. Johns, and Villanova) or other schools with strong basketball traditions (Seton Hall, Creighton, Providence, or Butler) or would you rather get psyched to watch Fordham, Duquesne, and George Mason come to play? Really outside of VCU, what in conference game do you get really excited for. No way your typical season ticket holder would feel that way unless they feared they would loose all those games. What about the OCC, don't you think you would have an easier time getting home and homes with the football five if you were from a power conference? Call me when the A-10 has a scheduling agreement with the Big 10, then we can talk.

3) The administrators of UD absolutely will go for the Big east in a heart beat. The Big East is composed of Dayton's peer institutions, the large catholic universities. Now don't get me wrong the A-10 has some fine academic institutions some even catholic (Saint Louis, Duquense and Fordham), but does Dayton really consider a school like George Mason part of their peer group. The administration would love to be connected to Villanova and Georgetown. Also college administrators go after money where they can get it, that's how this conference realignment thing started. No way your turn down Fox Money (or exposure) so you can have you games on a WHIO or the Time Warner Sports network.

4) Fox sports come with some baggage due to there affiliation with Fox News. 1) I don't see Fox Sports running promos for Fox News. In fact watching a game you wouldn't know there was an association. 2) Dayton is located in SW Ohio. SW Ohio is the republican side of the state. In addition Fox News is the most popular cable news channel. It goes to reason that the majority of Dayton Fans and Alumni are not adverse to Fox News. Although as a Conservative but not necessarily a Republican I am not a fan.... I prefer BBC news. 3) If Dayton was so high and mighty about Fox news, why would they allow three of their conference games to be shown on NBCSN. NBCSN be tainted by their association with the anti religion - Baby Killers (i.e. pro-abortion people) at MSNBC?

I've wasted too much time with you already, but I have one final question. Why do you feel the need to post on board for a conference that you believe Dayton is too good for. Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

To sensible Dayton fans like UD Flyer fanatic, please keep posting your thoughts are welcome here. But to fans like this, the world would be a much better place if you stuck to UDPride.

[BEX]

Still true today, 99% of UD fans will agree:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/spo ... -ud/nWd3H/

[DudeAnon]

*Yawn* Both Dayton and Xavier are mediocre schools.

We got a real Henry Clay here lol

[JPSchmack]

But if the Big East is looking for a patsy for in conferences losses then the Duquesne Dukes would win the honor going away. For starters Duquesne has a $260 mil endowment, 10,000 students, and are located in Pittsburgh.

Agreed this is something the JPSchmack doesn't understand. An expansion candidate has to be able to bring something to the Big East.

JPSchmack dedication to his team is impressive, but even if we did just add patsies there are still better options than St. Bonnies. Saint Louis, Duquesne, Detroit Mercy, Dayton (Wouldn't call them a patsy, but they generally do a good job in the OCC only to disappoint in conference), Canisius, Siena, Holy Cross, Loyola Maryland, Boston University, Northeastern University, Hartford, and Richmond come to mind. That's not to mention schools that are in the same market of a Big East school that would be better adds than St. Bonnies. The only problem is outside of adding teams outside of Dayton (and possibly Duquesne, Richmond, and Saint Louis), the average college basketball fan is going to scratch their heads and say what is the Big East thinking? The move would be mocked relentlessly on ESPN and elsewhere. In addition it would make the Big East seem like a mid major conference. So while I understand as a St Bonaventure Fan, you see all that the Big East can offer your school and you want in. But you can't honestly believe it would be in the Big East best interest to add St. Bonaventure.

I’ve addressed that a few times, and it’s not because I’m a Bona fan that I think Bonaventure is probably the smartest addition. The main hurdle for Bonaventure is the tiny Olean market, which isn’t really a hurdle when you apply the common sense that: If the town is that small, it means the fans don’t live there and have to watch on TV (which is the goal of adding a large market: TV viewers).

Bona is simply a best starting point for the Big East program you should try to GROW in Western New York because it’s the only region you’re going to find with 2.6 million people and NO BCS SCHOOLS to be found. If there was a private school in Cleveland, like if the University of Dayton or Gonzaga just moved their campus there, THEY’D be a no brainer for your league. But there ISN’T.

The only realistic candidates you mentioned are surrounded by BCS programs who soak up all the attention in their markets:

Saint Louis is surrounded by Illinois, Missouri and Kansas fans, and the market didn’t really care/watch when Saint Louis was good and in the dance.
Duquense is second fiddle to Pitt
Detroit is third fiddle to Michigan State and Michigan (and Oakland would be a better choice if you did go that route)
Loyola Maryland is second fiddle to Maryland (and I’d think Georgetown would be against their inclusion due to the relative proximity)
Northeastern & Boston University are vying for second fiddle behind BC (and I’d think Providence would be against their inclusion due to the relative proximity)
Hartford is vying for second fiddle to UConn (and I’d think Providence would be against their inclusion due to the relative proximity)

I agree Richmond and Dayton fit the Big East profile quite well and probably should have been 11 and 12 when you started the league.

Canisius has the benefit of actually being in Buffalo and would probably surpass Bona in popularity in Buffalo if you did add them. Over time, of course. But Bona is far more competitive now, and it would take a Big East affiliation for Canisius t get to Bona’s level. For a while, it would be pretty embarrassing when Bona beats Canisius after you add them and before they get good. And I don’t think Rochester would really care about Canisius as much as they do/would about Bonas.

You have to remember that there’s been “50 years of normalcy” the last 50 years, and part of that normal has been Bona being covered by Buffalo/Rochester, Canisius not being covered by Rochester, and Bona just being better than Canisius. That doesn’t suddenly go away. The media members in Buffalo/Rochester still want to cover Bona because THEY WENT THERE. Bonaventure is the better starting point. If Bona and Canisius were PEERS, then yeah, we lose because of market. But we’re NOT PEERS. We get more coverage than them because we’ve been better for 50 years and their media went to Bonaventure and would rather cover us.


Also, endowment is meaningless to the discussion. Rice has an endowment $2 billion larger than Ohio State. OSU football and basketball would both be favored by 21.5 points at least over Rice. GW is bigger than Nebraska and Florida. VCU is bigger than Oklahoma. Harvard’s is 13 TIMES bigger than UNC: Tar Heels or Crimson, who ya got in your bracket?


The average basketball fan WOULD say “what is the Big East doing with Bonaventure?” (and would say the same thing about anyone but Richmond, Saint Louis and Dayton). But

A. if you make all your decisions based on the average fan’s opinion, you’re shooting yourself in the foot (Stopping at 10 was one big blast to your NCAA unit revenue streams). The average fan doesn’t grasp how conferences actually work. A lot of very above average fans, such as yourselves, are wrapped up in conventional wisdom as well. There’s a really strong myth that you need to be LOADED FROM TOP TO BOTTOM to be strong, but “best conference from top to bottom” and “MOST EFFICIENT” are two different things. Fans on message boards like to debate best from top to bottom. Most efficient gets you PAID and dollars is what matters to the CEOs of sports.

B. when you announce multiple schools at once, you split the story. “Big East adds St. Bonaventure. Really? St. Bonaventure?” would be the story if you expanded to 11 with just the Bonnies. Adding multiple teams, there are 3-5 stories to cover: What it means for the Big East, who are the schools added, what’s the purpose of each.

C. I don’t think you need to worry about ESPN mocking you for this, they barely mention you exist now that they don’t own your rights anyway. It would be mentioned briefly at the 45 minute mark before they go to Barry Melrose for 60 seconds of NHL highlights.

D. You can time your announcement to minimize blowback (like I said, Friday of the NCAA Round of 64 and it gets zero attention).

E. You’ll get the last laugh when you get more bids.

[JPSchmack]

I'm sorry, but what does "NEXT BEST" mean? That the BE and A10 are close in positioning on a list? You know it's not that simple. Just look at this year:

Are you suggesting that 4 to 7 is no big deal, or that the A10 is the next non-P5 conference after the BE? So what?

The rankings and the projected seedings between both conferences evidence material differences in positioning. Perception has otherwise met reality this season, with new deals like the BE/BIG challenge, which incidentally launched Xavier's season with our win in Ann Arbor. The money differential and the media differential are HUGE between the BE and A10. There just isn't any other way to see that.

The narrative will come down to how many teams did each conference get into the Dance and how well did they do, but that will be combined with the total body of work when it comes to forming perceptions about conferences. Even so, the Big East is working its way through to a better positioning in the Dance, and while success in the Dance can be up to match-ups and the whims of Hoop Gods, I like the Big East's line-up when it comes to being well positioned for advancing in the tourney this year.

I'm not suggesting the A10 is sinking. You're technically right about the A10 being the NEXT BEST non-P5 conference at this time, but I'm not sure what that means when it comes to long term success.

We’re generally in agreement. What I’m saying is pretty simple: Yes, the Atlantic 10 is behind the Big East, and probably always will be. Because we always have been. But what the A-10 is to the Big East (and vice versa) is the same relationship the A-10 has with everyone else in the MAAC/CAA range or worse.

I’m saying the A-10’s always gonna be better off than that “everyone else,” so it’s not “that big of a deal” to be left behind from the Big East. Yeah, it’s a $4 million revenue difference, and national perception, and etc.

But that’s the reality the A-10’s lived with since 1979. What’s changed NOW?

We WERE below “The BCS Six” and in a group with MWC, WCC, C-USA, MVC, CAA, fighting for the title of “best of the other majors.”

Then the split of the Big East happened and… we’re behind the exact same conferences as before. And that group of six conferences we fought with? It’s become a group of THREE. And everyone else who tried to be in the conversation fell off a cliff when they lost their Butler, their VCU, their Memphis, etc.

We already had this conversation back in 2012. Back when I got mocked for saying the A-10 would be just fine, and EVERYONE called me crazy for saying the A-10 wouldn’t lose NCAA bids when Xavier & Temple left (And we got six bids that next year).

[sheg]

I need to read this board more than once a month just for the lolz.

It's a good thing fans don't run college sports.

Murphy, don't be ridiculous. We would accept the invitation in a New York nanosecond.