Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[Xudash]

I haven't visited this thread in a while, but I think it is hilarious that we are about 150 pages of this and Xavier and Dayton fans still go at it; it is kind of amusing. I'm not going to quote anything because I don't feel like going back through the posts, but here are some of my thoughts on some of the posts--

Murph- You said Dayton doesn't want to be with Fox and the A10 gives them a vehicle to what they want as far as TV is concerned- WHAT??? Everyone on here seems to be logical posters but to say the A10 could perhaps give them a better TV deal is ludicrous. Of course there is uncertainty with Fox as their coverage of college basketball is just starting, but you can't honestly tell me that the games on NBC sports is better. NBC coverage is horrible. I enjoy the games on CBS sports and the few A10 games on ESPN, but NBC is almost unwatchable.

BEX- I don't know what your source is, but UD acceptance right is not 59%. I work in the school systems and work closely with people at UD because some of my students attend that school and the acceptance rate is closer to 25%. I know that for a fact. I don't know about any of the other schools.

I know a lot of people on here think I am a UD fan because I talk a lot about them, but I'm really not. Of course I follow them because they are local and a ton of my friends are either UD or X fans. From a basketball standpoint, yes, many fans of UD have kind of backed of the BE wagon because of success on the court Dayton has had with Archie Miller. If you ask the typical Dayton fan if they would join the BE, of course they would say yes, but having success in the NCAA tournament under Archie Miller which Dayton hasn't had in forever kind of takes the front seat over the BE to a lot of UD fans.

I know a handful of people at the UD office and while I haven't talked to them in a while about this, they wanted to join the BE simply because of institutional fit rather than simply basketball. Dayton, Xavier, Marquette, Depaul all had rivalries back in the day and the UD admin sees themselves as institutional fits with most of those schools. Whether that is still the case, I really don't know because I haven't talked about it in a while. The big rumor back last summer was with Dayton adding lacrosse next year and the renovations of UD arena coming up all that would happen at the same time Dayton joined the BE; is that truth or rumor? No one knows but I think Dayton #1 priority right now should be to keep Archie for as long as possible. Part of the reason Dayton has struggled in the A10 and Xavier owned the rivalry as of late was because of busts like Jim O'Brien, Oliver Purnell, and Brian Gregory. Finally Dayton has a coach that can keep them a consistent top 50 program, so they should focus on keeping him at Dayton. With a new state of the art arena that the NCAA comes to every year and a coach that will keep Dayton competitive, does that make them attractive to the BE? I know Xavier fans will say heck no and say Archie is leaving soon, and all of that may be true; but, the next two or three years I think will be very interesting.

XUdash- Keep in mind, fans posting on here represent less than 1% of the fan base. I know a lot of UD fans seem delusional and I know a lot of them, but I also know a lot of UD fans that have a good head on their shoulders. Trust me, I know my share of "delusional Xavier fans as well." I have heard Xavier fans tell me the reason Dayton is not in the BE is because of the 30 point a** kicking they put on Dayton in Orlando. That is funny, when one game means a school's conference affiliation. I've also heard Xavier is blocking Dayton from the conference That was a really, really, really good Xavier team; it's not like that was an average basketball team that took it to Dayton. Xavier is putting a lot of but-kicking on a lot of teams this year and if Chris Mack doesn't get Xavier into a deep run in March, there will be some X fans after his head. I believe they are that good...I also remember Xavier fans saying that the three students that were mocking Xavier at their shoot around a couple of years ago at UD Arena in a shoot around before a play-in game irked the X admin so much that because of that only they were blocking Dayton. I agree with what a lot of what you say and agree with many of your points regarding Xavier and Dayton on these threads, but trust me-- both schools have their share of idiots. Just look at the X board when the NBE first formed and Xavier fans didn't want Dayton in because other schools would get STDs from UD Arena...come on man..both schools can be ridiculous.

but I think it is hilarious that we are about 150 pages of this and Xavier and Dayton fans still go at it; it is kind of amusing

- This is a Big East board. It isn't Xavier's problem that this dialogue is taking place in this manner, as Xavier obviously is a Big East member. It's also clear from this thread that other Big East members are less than enamored with UD and UD posters spending as much time as they do on this board.


BEX- I don't know what your source is, but UD acceptance right is not 59%

- A two minute search of the Internet keeps bringing back a UD acceptance rate of 59%; "closer to 25%." And you're not actually a direct fan, right?


but having success in the NCAA tournament under Archie Miller which Dayton hasn't had in forever kind of takes the front seat over the BE to a lot of UD fans.

- Exactly. That's how a fan might look at it, though, if I were a UD fan, I'd be sick of playing LossSalle and the other bottom feeders in the A10; not much room for stubbing one's toe. Besides, that isn't the point. The real focus is held at the institutional level. The UD Administration would accept a Big East invitation in a nano-second for all the obvious reasons. Beyond that, Archie Miller, being a Miller and Sean's brother, isn't exactly going to retire at UD. He simply won't be there much longer, then those who care will get to witness how well UD does at replacing a coach, because they've been less than swift at doing that over the last couple decades.

XUdash- Keep in mind, fans posting on here represent less than 1% of the fan base & remaining para.

- I believe we all understand that dynamic.
- The difference in recruiting and talent between the Big East and the A10 was evidenced in that pounding in Orlando.
- Why do you believe it's your place to come onto a Big East board as a UD fan to spread stories about Xavier fans?
- Xavier has done nothing officially to block UD's Admission into the Big East, because UD has never been considered for inclusion in it, and isn't being considered now.
- Interesting insight on your part: going to the negative about Chris and Xavier fans wanting his head if we don't make a deep run. Sure, okay.
- Actually, the truly dumbest thing some idiot UD fans did was to cause one of their HOF players to break down in tears, with her daughters with her, in UD Arena. Classless.
- I don't believe any fanbase is immune from having overzealous fans, and I even went so far as to note the guys at Blackburn Review have a clue.

And so we add more to the discourse here, primarily because someone who is primarily concerned about UD felt compelled to chime in - again.

[murphy]

I approved the above post by murphy because I find it funny. Among the many reasons, We have several schools with a higher enrollment than UD, we have several with higher endowments, we have several with a higher ratio of endowment dollars to # students, most of us have newer arenas, nicer practice facilities, lower acceptance rates, higher rankings (whether regional or national), better exposure, huge capital projects that are funded primarily through donor dollars (see Georgetown's John Thompson Center, Creighton's new practice facility, Xavier's Cintas Center, Nova's renovations to the Pavillion, Seton Hall's new medical school, PC's new practice facility, take your pick from MU's $85 million law school/$31 million practice facility/$120 million upcoming athletics performance research center and indoor field house/ $11 million Jesuit residence/etc.) Dayton's basketball budget would fall very close to the bottom of the Big East, it is less than half of the budgets of several of our members. Suffice it to say we are not impressed. The fact that the NCAA sees fit to play the least watched and least important leg of the tournament in Dayton isn't something I see as a particularly large benefit. I couldn't have told you where it was played until Dayton posters started coming here bragging about it.

UD is a nice school in a decent but stereotypical smaller midwest town. It has a decent basketball history but nothing so spectacular that our member schools are desperate to associate with them. UD, on the other hand, would play the rest of the season as an independent against DII schools if it would get them an invite to the BE for next year.

i am not sure why the XU fans are trying to convince me or the vast majority of UD fans that they need to join the BE. I can tell you that if you polled the long time UD season holders and the admin the vote would be vastly in favor of staying in the A10. Why would UD want to lose control? There is no financial need to change, UD is financially set for the long haul and more. The BE has become the FOX networks (sports and news and entertainment divisions) property, with all that baggage associated with it. Yes the BE is interesting to many UD fans as many of these schools have a long history of playing UD expecially XU Depaul, Marquette, even VU, and SHU, and SJU from the 50 and 60s, It is just not worth it in the long run. We are lovin where we are at, everything is good, why change?

[handdownmandown]

Because ultimately there will be conferences who will be the winners, and conferences that will be the losers, when it comes to college hoops.

There is no guarantee that the BE will be a big winner, though it seems headed that way right now. However, the A10 will always be an also ran.

The best time to get off the Titanic was when there were still lifeboats available, not when the keel was above the waterline. Same applies here.

[JPSchmack]

Because ultimately there will be conferences who will be the winners, and conferences that will be the losers, when it comes to college hoops.

There is no guarantee that the BE will be a big winner, though it seems headed that way right now. However, the A10 will always be an also ran.

The best time to get off the Titanic was when there were still lifeboats available, not when the keel was above the waterline. Same applies here.

That first sentence is true. Except it's not binary, it's relative.

There's 22 non-FBS conferences in college basketball.

The Big East is always going to be THE BEST of them.
But the A-10 is always going to be the NEXT BEST after the BE.
The West Coast Conference and MVC will probably always be the next best after them.

So it's not a sink or swim for the A-10. It might be for Wichita State if UMass were to get an AAC invite and the A-10 reached out to them... but it's still relative.

[Xudash]

I approved the above post by murphy because I find it funny. Among the many reasons, We have several schools with a higher enrollment than UD, we have several with higher endowments, we have several with a higher ratio of endowment dollars to # students, most of us have newer arenas, nicer practice facilities, lower acceptance rates, higher rankings (whether regional or national), better exposure, huge capital projects that are funded primarily through donor dollars (see Georgetown's John Thompson Center, Creighton's new practice facility, Xavier's Cintas Center, Nova's renovations to the Pavillion, Seton Hall's new medical school, PC's new practice facility, take your pick from MU's $85 million law school/$31 million practice facility/$120 million upcoming athletics performance research center and indoor field house/ $11 million Jesuit residence/etc.) Dayton's basketball budget would fall very close to the bottom of the Big East, it is less than half of the budgets of several of our members. Suffice it to say we are not impressed. The fact that the NCAA sees fit to play the least watched and least important leg of the tournament in Dayton isn't something I see as a particularly large benefit. I couldn't have told you where it was played until Dayton posters started coming here bragging about it.

UD is a nice school in a decent but stereotypical smaller midwest town. It has a decent basketball history but nothing so spectacular that our member schools are desperate to associate with them. UD, on the other hand, would play the rest of the season as an independent against DII schools if it would get them an invite to the BE for next year.

i am not sure why the XU fans are trying to convince me or the vast majority of UD fans that they need to join the BE. I can tell you that if you polled the long time UD season holders and the admin the vote would be vastly in favor of staying in the A10. Why would UD want to lose control? There is no financial need to change, UD is financially set for the long haul and more. The BE has become the FOX networks (sports and news and entertainment divisions) property, with all that baggage associated with it. Yes the BE is interesting to many UD fans as many of these schools have a long history of playing UD expecially XU Depaul, Marquette, even VU, and SHU, and SJU from the 50 and 60s, It is just not worth it in the long run. We are lovin where we are at, everything is good, why change?

The ability to change (from the A10 to the BE) presumes an option exists for changing. That option doesn't exist and it never did exist, because UD didn't and still doesn't have the resume for inclusion in the Big East, not that a resume will trump UD's fundamental problem of location.

Your reading comprehension skills are comical: no one is attempting to convince you or other UD fans that UD needs to join the Big East. Just about everyone here is making it bluntly and abundantly clear that UD doesn't belong in the Big East. There is no option for UD and its basketball program to join the Big East. None. Zero. Nada. This isn't about you making a decision between choices, as your only choice is to remain in the A10 where you belong.

In the meantime, while every Big East member institution continues to prosper and grow from their membership in the Big East, you especially will be warm and comfortable knowing that UD will be a king in its mid-major fiefdom, enjoying about $300k in media-centric income from back water broadcast solutions, while having no margin for error on the court from having to play a problematic conference schedule.

Consider us as being on record that we understand that you are ecstatic that UD is in the A10 and should remain in the A10, even if a totally unlikely invite to the Big East showed up in the UD President's office. Now you can go back to where ever you go back to and "keep control" of all that strategic value the A10 delivers.

Seriously, is someone paying you to come over here and behave this stupidly? That is obviously a rhetorical question. You have eloquently made your position known, which means you don't have to visit again. Congrats!

[Xudash]

Because ultimately there will be conferences who will be the winners, and conferences that will be the losers, when it comes to college hoops.

There is no guarantee that the BE will be a big winner, though it seems headed that way right now. However, the A10 will always be an also ran.

The best time to get off the Titanic was when there were still lifeboats available, not when the keel was above the waterline. Same applies here.

That first sentence is true. Except it's not binary, it's relative.

There's 22 non-FBS conferences in college basketball.

The Big East is always going to be THE BEST of them.
But the A-10 is always going to be the NEXT BEST after the BE.
The West Coast Conference and MVC will probably always be the next best after them.

So it's not a sink or swim for the A-10. It might be for Wichita State if UMass were to get an AAC invite and the A-10 reached out to them... but it's still relative.

JP,

I'm sorry, but what does "NEXT BEST" mean? That the BE and A10 are close in positioning on a list? You know it's not that simple. Just look at this year:

Rank Conference Avg. RPI
1 Big 12 0.6039
2 Pacific-12 0.5926
3 Atlantic Coast 0.5853
4 Big East 0.5751
5 Southeastern 0.5677
6 Big Ten 0.5646
7 Atlantic 10 0.5441
8 American Athletic 0.5340
9 Colonial Athletic 0.5242
10 Summit 0.5149

Are you suggesting that 4 to 7 is no big deal, or that the A10 is the next non-P5 conference after the BE? So what?

The rankings and the projected seedings between both conferences evidence material differences in positioning. Perception has otherwise met reality this season, with new deals like the BE/BIG challenge, which incidentally launched Xavier's season with our win in Ann Arbor. The money differential and the media differential are HUGE between the BE and A10. There just isn't any other way to see that.

The narrative will come down to how many teams did each conference get into the Dance and how well did they do, but that will be combined with the total body of work when it comes to forming perceptions about conferences. Even so, the Big East is working its way through to a better positioning in the Dance, and while success in the Dance can be up to match-ups and the whims of Hoop Gods, I like the Big East's line-up when it comes to being well positioned for advancing in the tourney this year.

I'm not suggesting the A10 is sinking. You're technically right about the A10 being the NEXT BEST non-P5 conference at this time, but I'm not sure what that means when it comes to long term success.

[UD Flyer Fanatic]

Hi XUDash, I can't speak to who is a UD fan on this thread and who is not - but you get lit up like a Roman firecracker when someone mentions UD. Your clearly a smart guy that appreciates membership in the BE. I want UD to be part of the preeminent Catholic BB conference. But there is a legitimate voice within my peeps that does feel their fine where they are at. We are in a good spot. I'm not sure why they feel the need to share their view on this Board other than to suggest their reacting to your outspoken view. Now I know we are not members and your school is. Just sayin... Next time we're at the same venue IM me and it would be my pleasure to buy you a beer. And maybe place a small wager on the rematch (though with your current team I may need a few points )

[FenwayFriar]

Now I know what my life would look like if URI ever had a chance in h-e-double hockey sticks to join the BE (which obviously it doesn't and never will for many reasons). I can safely say that it's far more enjoyable reading this for entertainment purposes only and not having a horse in the race. I have enough to argue about with Rams fans as it is. Proceed!

[UD Flyer Fanatic]

Fenway, it is bazaar isn't it. All I can say is it won't go beyond this expansion thread as far as I'm concerned. And if I'm pissing people off just say the word and I'm gone. But its fun to have a team "you love to hate" and I say that with all respect.

[Xudash]

Hi XUDash, I can't speak to who is a UD fan on this thread and who is not - but you get lit up like a Roman firecracker when someone mentions UD. Your clearly a smart guy that appreciates membership in the BE. I want UD to be part of the preeminent Catholic BB conference. But there is a legitimate voice within my peeps that does feel their fine where they are at. We are in a good spot. I'm not sure why they feel the need to share their view on this Board other than to suggest their reacting to your outspoken view. Now I know we are not members and your school is. Just sayin... Next time we're at the same venue IM me and it would be my pleasure to buy you a beer. And maybe place a small wager on the rematch (though with your current team I may need a few points )

Firstly, allow me to buy the cocktails, and it would be a pleasure meeting you.

I don't get lit up like a firecracker when it comes to UD. There are actually two things going on with my posting in this thread:

1. I focus a lot on the strategic side of what a solid basketball program means to a hoops-centric university. I know I don't need to regurgitate the value of the BE to its member institutions to you. I personally believe we are solid at 10 and should build the brand from here, especially since we're achieving so much success. That success and the positive working relationships that presently exist between the Presidents, Val Ackerman's staff, FOX, and MSG suggest a strategy of staying at 10 teams for the foreseeable future, regardless of any other developments in D1A sports. Then deal with change as change unfolds, assuming it unfolds to a material degree.

2. I've let a number of UD posts in this never ending thread go by, so it isn't about UD, per se. I guess I enjoy going open-season on stupid. If this murphy guy feels compelled to keep coming over here to inform us that UD is set for life and loves the A10 and could care less about the BE, well, while I freely admit that I could just as easily ignore it, its more fun clubbing him over it, especially when he's antagonistic about it. It's not so much about getting lit up over UD as it is about the opportunity to hunt certain dumb fish in a barrel. Frankly, I'm trying to help him leave this board. He just happens to be a particularly dumb and masochistic fish.

I don't consider my view to be outspoken. Honestly, I think that's where you keep tripping up. I'm writing on a Big East Message Board. My view fundamentally holds that the BE is better than the A10, and that the 10 members that comprise it comprise it for very specific reasons. I mean it when I've stated that I see UD in Xavier's rear view mirror. Anyone with the right data would see it that way. That doesn't mean that UD can't still be successful. If that hurts the feelings of fans of teams that are not members of the Big East, their choices are to not visit here to read this stuff, or to visit and know that their responses will attract a level of scrutiny and reaction commensurate with the content of their responses. It should be telling to you that some UD fans have already made UD look foolish to Big East fans here who have nothing to do with Xavier.

UD fans have every reason to be proud right now. Archie finally has UD turned around, and I know all too well how hard it is to punch through to an E8. You love your place, you attract loyal crowds and you continue to win. Everyone has a right to enjoy that. Frankly, I truly believe UD's biggest problem right now is Thad Matta's health, but we'll see how all that plays out soon enough.

So, understanding that I'm speaking my view, which I find to be reasonably objective, on this Big East Board, I'll agree with you: I'm not sure why UD fans feel the need to share their view on this Board as much as they do, either.

Finally, if there is a chance to meet we'll make that happen and the drinks will truly be on me. And should that involve another head-to-head contest, I'm confident that you'll refuse the points. Taking them would be below a Flyer Fan - you don't need no stinking points!