Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[notkirkcameron]

I have a fun idea for expansion. The Big East could absorb all of the Catholic Schools from the Atlantic 10 along with Loyola(MVC) and Detroit(Horizon). This could be done to help the RPI by using promotion and relegation policy similar to that of European Soccer. There would still be two separate conferences based on performance from the previous season. The Big East would be the A League, while the other conference could serve as a B league. There could still be a 16 game round robin for each conference with 2 cross over games that didn't count in the league standings. At the end of each season the bottom two schools in the Big East would be relegated to the B league for the next season while the two top finishing schools in the B league would be promoted. It would look something like this:

Big East
1. Villanova
2. Xavier
3. Providence
4. Georgetown
5. Creighton
6. Seton Hall
7. Marquette
8. DePaul
9. St. John's


Lower League
1. Dayton
2. St. Joseph's
3. St. Bonaventure
4. Duquesne
5. Loyola (from MVC)
6. St. Louis
7. Fordham
8. Detroit (from Horizon)
9. La Salle

Another potential negative effect of this admittedly fanciful arrangement is that HLOH will have to deal with Canisius, Siena, Holy Cross, and Iona fans filling the role of Dayton fans; screaming about how they deserve to be in the Big East too.

[murphy]

I like Know Nothings idea- very impracticle but outside the box. Similar to the English Premier Soccer league where they demote their worst teams each season.

I'd like to share a NCAA.com article I found on UD Pride. I've said before that as a guest of the HLOH I'd refrain from posting on threads unless UD was a relevent topic. So please indulge me as I point out there is a contribution we'd bring to the table as a member (yes I know X fans - there is no current chance of expansion, this is just for fun) that is hard to quantify- the fun factor. Evan as conference cellar dwellars (which we would not be) we'd be a road destination that all of you would find entertaining. UD simply bleeds BB and always will. This article talks about the 5 BB venues in the nation that one should not miss. Along with UD is one of your own. BTW UD has begun a study to review options at improving the venerable UD Arena- UD BB will do what it takes to remain relevent regardless of it's conference affiliation.

You may have missed it, but we've been informed that UD has zero interest in joining the Big East.

UD's administration apparently is very happy to remain in the A10, plans to remain relevant there, and believes UD to be above any national/global media company, and despises Fox, in particular.

I am not sure why you can understand that you visit the ud board (ud pride) without any desire to join the A10, but when i visit this site for similar reasons, I am interested in what the BE is up to, then it be because UD wants to join the BE.
However apparently you do not know much about UD. UD is washing in money, yery low admission acceptance rate, huge endowment, they can set their tuition at whatever level and the demand is very high and there are very successful alums just waiting to fund whatever is needed.
UD does not want to make a deal with the devil (pardon the reference) with FOX Sports and indirectly be linked to FOX news etc. UD wants to chart their own course and
the A10 provides them that vehicle. UD as the largest private university in Ohio established in 1850 and the site of the FIRST FOUR really does not need the BE.
They have a long history of this independent status and do not want to be associated with a network like FOX. No way would they want to be locked into a 10 year deal with a network with a particular political leaning.

Good luck to XU and maybe we will see you again in March

[BEX]

UD acceptance rate = 59%. Georgetown = 16.4%. Which one would you classify as low? Saying UD would not accept an invite to the BE is just a joke. First four? Who cares? Just a boon for Cincinnati tourism since nobody stays in the Dayton ghetto.

[BEwannabe]

all I can add is murph must be a troll, tidbits of real data but only using it to draw reaction, UD certainly isn't checking on the political leanings of sports broadcasting partners.

[marquette]

I approved the above post by murphy because I find it funny. Among the many reasons, We have several schools with a higher enrollment than UD, we have several with higher endowments, we have several with a higher ratio of endowment dollars to # students, most of us have newer arenas, nicer practice facilities, lower acceptance rates, higher rankings (whether regional or national), better exposure, huge capital projects that are funded primarily through donor dollars (see Georgetown's John Thompson Center, Creighton's new practice facility, Xavier's Cintas Center, Nova's renovations to the Pavillion, Seton Hall's new medical school, PC's new practice facility, take your pick from MU's $85 million law school/$31 million practice facility/$120 million upcoming athletics performance research center and indoor field house/ $11 million Jesuit residence/etc.) Dayton's basketball budget would fall very close to the bottom of the Big East, it is less than half of the budgets of several of our members. Suffice it to say we are not impressed. The fact that the NCAA sees fit to play the least watched and least important leg of the tournament in Dayton isn't something I see as a particularly large benefit. I couldn't have told you where it was played until Dayton posters started coming here bragging about it.

UD is a nice school in a decent but stereotypical smaller midwest town. It has a decent basketball history but nothing so spectacular that our member schools are desperate to associate with them. UD, on the other hand, would play the rest of the season as an independent against DII schools if it would get them an invite to the BE for next year.

[_lh]

UD needs the BE way more than the BE needs UD.

If UD is ever actually invited, they will of course accept.

[Xudash]

I approved the above post by murphy because I find it funny. Of the BE schools, Among the many reasons, We have several schools with a higher enrollment than UD, we have several with higher endowments, we have several with a higher ratio of endowment dollars to # students, most of us have newer arenas, nicer practice facilities, lower acceptance rates, higher rankings (whether regional or national), better exposure, huge capital projects that are funded primarily through donor dollars (see Georgetown's John Thompson Center, Creighton's new practice facility, Xavier's Cintas Center, Nova's renovations to the Pavillion, Seton Hall's new medical school, PC's new practice facility, take your pick from MU's $85 million law school/$31 million practice facility/$120 million upcoming athletics performance research center and indoor field house/ $11 million Jesuit residence/etc.) Dayton's basketball budget would fall very close to the bottom of the Big East, it is less than half of the budgets of several of our members. Suffice it to say we are not impressed. The fact that the NCAA sees fit to play the least watched and least important leg of the tournament in Dayton isn't something I see as a particularly large benefit. I couldn't have told you where it was played until Dayton posters started coming here bragging about it.

UD is a nice school in a decent but stereotypical smaller midwest town. It has a decent basketball history but nothing so spectacular that our member schools are desperate to associate with them. UD, on the other hand, would play the rest of the season as an independent against DII schools if it would get them an invite to the BE for next year.

I'm glad you wrote all this. This fool needed pounded upon with the fact that other schools aren't exactly standing still, and you did a wonderful job of it.

And now I'll pile on from the Xavier side:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/05/18/exclusive-xavier-breaks-fundraising-record.html

Yes, that's three gifts alone for the majority of $100 million. Again, none of us are standing still when it comes to fund raising. Over the last two decades, Xavier has been catching up in both physical plant and endowment goals. It started when Father James Hoff hired Notre Dame's long-time fundraising consultant to put Xavier's present fundraising operation in place. The last thing I'm worried about is where Xavier's endowment is headed from here. It's headed towards what would be a comfortable $300 million for Xavier in this funding cycle. I actually see an acceleration in its growth as a result of Xavier's membership in the Big East. The Big East is truly strategic to Xavier and is about more than just basketball, as far as that goes.

$250 million in capital projects alone later, except for one really big announcement that is coming this spring (the new blowout rec center), the physical plant side will begin to quiet down for a while as endowment and program funding targets take over. BTW, the new Alter Hall's $19 million price tag was paid for out of internally generated cash flow. Otherwise, capital projects will only quiet down on the direct investment side (i.e. Xavier funding projects) though University Station is still in the process of filling out.

Overall, most older alumni of our Big East schools probably return to their campuses these days and simply shake their heads over the extent of change that has taken place on them.


http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/11/02/xavier-to-expand-cintas-center.html

Xavier fulfilling its commitment to Xavier and to the Big East to keep the Cintas Center a top flight facility for student-athletes and fans.

UD is a good school. Xavier and UD compete for students constantly. I don't believe this murphy character is a troll. I think it's pretty obvious he simply has an inflated sense of worth when it comes to UD and UD basketball - especially UD basketball, which is without question below acceptability level for the Big East. I suspect he's one of their "sweater vest" crowd living on whatever success they experienced when shag carpeting was orange and Laugh-In was running on NBC.

p.s. murphy, I visited UDPRIDE at the time before and after Xavier blew UD off the floor in Orlando. It had been a while - since Xavier's A10 days - before that. I'm back to not spending time there, because I have no interest in doing that and because my November visits reaffirmed what I thought I already knew: that group of UD fans are, for the most part, truly delusional. It's too bad, really, that you can't be more realistic. The guys on Blackburn Review, who still refer to Xavier as UD's OVERLORD, at least seem to have a sense of humor and a stronger grip on reality.

[Xudash]

And then there is this:

http://collegebasketball.ap.org/article/big-east-looks-beast-ncaa-tournament-tell-tale

We don't need to dilute the product.

More to the point: some Tournament success to go along with all this in-season success is key. Let's knock down the door this year.

[ohiohsbball]

I haven't visited this thread in a while, but I think it is hilarious that we are about 150 pages of this and Xavier and Dayton fans still go at it; it is kind of amusing. I'm not going to quote anything because I don't feel like going back through the posts, but here are some of my thoughts on some of the posts--

Murph- You said Dayton doesn't want to be with Fox and the A10 gives them a vehicle to what they want as far as TV is concerned- WHAT??? Everyone on here seems to be logical posters but to say the A10 could perhaps give them a better TV deal is ludicrous. Of course there is uncertainty with Fox as their coverage of college basketball is just starting, but you can't honestly tell me that the games on NBC sports is better. NBC coverage is horrible. I enjoy the games on CBS sports and the few A10 games on ESPN, but NBC is almost unwatchable.

BEX- I don't know what your source is, but UD acceptance right is not 59%. I work in the school systems and work closely with people at UD because some of my students attend that school and the acceptance rate is closer to 25%. I know that for a fact. I don't know about any of the other schools.

I know a lot of people on here think I am a UD fan because I talk a lot about them, but I'm really not. Of course I follow them because they are local and a ton of my friends are either UD or X fans. From a basketball standpoint, yes, many fans of UD have kind of backed of the BE wagon because of success on the court Dayton has had with Archie Miller. If you ask the typical Dayton fan if they would join the BE, of course they would say yes, but having success in the NCAA tournament under Archie Miller which Dayton hasn't had in forever kind of takes the front seat over the BE to a lot of UD fans.

I know a handful of people at the UD office and while I haven't talked to them in a while about this, they wanted to join the BE simply because of institutional fit rather than simply basketball. Dayton, Xavier, Marquette, Depaul all had rivalries back in the day and the UD admin sees themselves as institutional fits with most of those schools. Whether that is still the case, I really don't know because I haven't talked about it in a while. The big rumor back last summer was with Dayton adding lacrosse next year and the renovations of UD arena coming up all that would happen at the same time Dayton joined the BE; is that truth or rumor? No one knows but I think Dayton #1 priority right now should be to keep Archie for as long as possible. Part of the reason Dayton has struggled in the A10 and Xavier owned the rivalry as of late was because of busts like Jim O'Brien, Oliver Purnell, and Brian Gregory. Finally Dayton has a coach that can keep them a consistent top 50 program, so they should focus on keeping him at Dayton. With a new state of the art arena that the NCAA comes to every year and a coach that will keep Dayton competitive, does that make them attractive to the BE? I know Xavier fans will say heck no and say Archie is leaving soon, and all of that may be true; but, the next two or three years I think will be very interesting.

XUdash- Keep in mind, fans posting on here represent less than 1% of the fan base. I know a lot of UD fans seem delusional and I know a lot of them, but I also know a lot of UD fans that have a good head on their shoulders. Trust me, I know my share of "delusional Xavier fans as well." I have heard Xavier fans tell me the reason Dayton is not in the BE is because of the 30 point a** kicking they put on Dayton in Orlando. That is funny, when one game means a school's conference affiliation. I've also heard Xavier is blocking Dayton from the conference That was a really, really, really good Xavier team; it's not like that was an average basketball team that took it to Dayton. Xavier is putting a lot of but-kicking on a lot of teams this year and if Chris Mack doesn't get Xavier into a deep run in March, there will be some X fans after his head. I believe they are that good...I also remember Xavier fans saying that the three students that were mocking Xavier at their shoot around a couple of years ago at UD Arena in a shoot around before a play-in game irked the X admin so much that because of that only they were blocking Dayton. I agree with what a lot of what you say and agree with many of your points regarding Xavier and Dayton on these threads, but trust me-- both schools have their share of idiots. Just look at the X board when the NBE first formed and Xavier fans didn't want Dayton in because other schools would get STDs from UD Arena...come on man..both schools can be ridiculous.

[Masterofreality]

Two things....and this is on good authority from a "highly placed source" in Ohio.
First-Thad Matta is in a declining condition because of his back. It is not good and there is a very good chance that he will be forced to retire from coaching at Ohio State very soon. Possibly still not this year but very soon. Ohio State's first choice..and much of this is from a long time connection between Thad Matta and the Miller family...is that Archie Miller move to Ohio State, and there is nothing Dayton can do about that.
Second- There is zero chance that Dayton will be invited to the Big East. Zero. Message Board posters can continue to have fun with this topic, but it will not happen. There is no desire from the league, nor any desire from the network as to pressure.

You can choose to believe me, or no, but these are things you can bet on.