Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[mpwalsh8]

St Bonaventure is no worse than St. John's. The Bonnie's could compete with Syracuse to see who is new York's team while Eddie Jordan and Chris Mullin wax poetic about the early 1980's and get their butts kicked game after game.

I'm not going to talk trash on any current Big East school. But St. Bonaventure was peers with Syracuse in the old ECAC, and had an intense, evenly matched annual rivalry. When the Big East was being organized, one of Gavitt's first calls was to his old frat brother, Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel.

Lo and behold, we weren't invited to the Big East and Syracuse hasn't played at the RC since Cherenko was running the USSR. Over time, revisionist history has made it sound like we weren't good enough (even though our Final Four banner was still fresh and SU hadn't been to one yet), or our TV market wasn't big enough (which is pretty insane when you consider that ESPN hadn't launched yet, so the networks were basically paying for the best teams, period).

I agree with JPSchmack on the part about St Bonaventure having a great program at least through the 70's.

By the late 70's though, Syracuse was the best team in Upstate NY. SU did make a Final Four in 75 (five years after St Bona already made one with Bob Lanier, one of the premier NBA centers with Milwaukee for 15 or so years, "the biggest feets in basketball").

Those mini-ECAC regional tourneys that I've babbled about a lot (I think they started once the NCAA field opened up to at-larges)... Upstate NY had one, and looking up the games it looks like they were held from 75 thru 79. Syracuse won each of the 5 tourneys, beating the Bonnies in the Upstate Finals in 75, 77, 78 and 79 (Syr beat Niagara in the 76 final).

Also, the Bonnies used to play PC every year, so they were a familiar name and I remember then as a talented team when I first paid attention in around 1977. I think they won the NIT back in 77, but not sure. St Bona also made the NCAA's in 78. NIT in 79.

If the original Big East had room for 2 Upstate NY teams, then St Bonaventure would have been a logical addition. Their remoteness I think destroyed their chances too, just too far from Buffalo. And yes, Gavitt was friends from college at Dartmouth with Crouthamel.

Having said all that, I like JPSchmack's contributions to this site. Different perspective but interesting. I'd like to get some history from him on the Upstate division... which teams were in it?... Syracuse, St Bona, Niagara, Canisius, Colgate... Siena? Anyone else?

It is hard to take any program seriously who goes with the moniker "Bonnies" - that alone should be sufficient reason not take St. Bonaventure seriously.

[BEwannabe]

On many fronts St. Bonaventure would not be a candidate but you really only need to start with institutional compatibility or in the Bonnies case simply having a sustainable model. I don't know every school's endowment but when I looked up St.B's I was shocked. Weighing in at 60mil, this alone would be a major red flag for a conference of peers like the Big East. St. Bonaventure is simply not a peer institution and not to be mean spirited but at 60 mil they wouldn't be peers with some D3 programs.

[gtmoBlue]

IMHO both JP's and Sheg's ideas have some merit...individual schools/school names aside. I would hope that Stu Jackson/Sean Murphy would give the ideas a look-see. Both ideas are great starting points for whenever the league may begin to consider alternative ideas and scenarios for potential future expansion. Thanks JP and Sheg.

Go Bonnies!

However... The Bonnies lead the 6 game all-time series 5-1 with the Jays, so we'll have to wait a bit to get some revenge. Last game was a barnburner, back in Feb 1968 (Bonnies won).

[Bill Marsh]

If the original Big East had room for 2 Upstate NY teams, then St Bonaventure would have been a logical addition. Their remoteness I think destroyed their chances too, just too far from Buffalo. And yes, Gavitt was friends from college at Dartmouth with Crouthamel.

Having said all that, I like JPSchmack's contributions to this site. Different perspective but interesting. I'd like to get some history from him on the Upstate division... which teams were in it?... Syracuse, St Bona, Niagara, Canisius, Colgate... Siena? Anyone else?

Ah yes, my apologies on the 1975 FF, I was trying to recall posts on another board from memory.

There wasn't a regular season to the ECAC. Everyone was basically an independent, with the ECAC having about 40 schools eligible for a regional tournaments, winners get NCAA automatic bids. Basically, if you look at the old conference standings from the mid-80s you can see who was in it:

The Big East formed with most the “best of the best” (shunning my boys)
The next level of basketball powers formed the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League, which is now the Atlantic 10.
Half the ECAC Metro Region split off and renamed themselves the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference (MAAC).
The remaining New England Region teams split off as the ECAC North, later renamed the America East.
The remaining ECAC Metro Region teams renamed themselves the Northeastern Conference (NEC)
The remaining ECAC South Region teams renamed themselves the Colonial Athletic Association (CAA).



Here’s the top 11 candidates, and their performance the decade before the Big East formation:
A: 226-88 (.719), 6 NCAA, 1 Elite 8, 1 Top 10 AP Finish
B: 207-85 (.709), 3 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
C: 224-92 (.709), 5 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
D: 198-117 (.629), 5 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four
E: 207-95 (.685), 7 NCAA, 3 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
F: 165-127 (.565) 2 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
G: 162-129 (.557), 2 NCAA
H: 147-135 (.521), 1 NCAA, Elite 8
I: 132-131 (.502), 0 NCAA
J: 138-145 (.487), 1 NCAA
K: 141-147 (.489), 0 NCAA

The Big East formed with A, C, D, E, F, G, H… and K. School I was added later.

School B was left out.

Interesting.

You're right that the Bg East was formed with the best of the best from each of the 4 ECAC regions. BUT the ECBL was not formed with the next level of basketball powers. What was then called the Eastern 8 was formed couple of years before the Big East, so they had first crack at getting the basketball schools. And they did assemble some very good hoops schools:

Rutgers - fresh off a Final Four
Villanova - only half a dozen years off a Final Four
West Virginia - great tradition with a Final 4 less than 20 years earlier and an NIT title in the '40's.
Duquesne - another school with a great basketball tradition including 2 NIT finals and an NIT title back in the '40's and '50's
Penn State - a football powerhouse, but some basketball history with a Final Four in the '50's

This had the potential to be a very strong basketball conference, possibly a super conference like the Big East. The basketball pedigree of these schools was at least equal to that of the Big East members at the time the Big East was formed. The difference was that it was put together with a different model than the Big East. The associations were driven by state schools and football relationships even though the driving force for conference formation at the time was basketball. In contrast, The Big East model emphasized big cities and big arenas.

Two early defections really killed the Eastern 8. First Penn State bailed on them after only 2 years. Paterno's pursuit of an all-sports conference built around football showed that not enough thought and planning had gone into the Eastern 8 in the first place. Second, Villanova decided to leave for the Big East and to drop football. A few years after these 2 devastating defections, Pitt decided to leave for the Big East as well, putting the final nail in their coffin.

[CoachK]

If the original Big East had room for 2 Upstate NY teams, then St Bonaventure would have been a logical addition. Their remoteness I think destroyed their chances too, just too far from Buffalo. And yes, Gavitt was friends from college at Dartmouth with Crouthamel.

Having said all that, I like JPSchmack's contributions to this site. Different perspective but interesting. I'd like to get some history from him on the Upstate division... which teams were in it?... Syracuse, St Bona, Niagara, Canisius, Colgate... Siena? Anyone else?

Ah yes, my apologies on the 1975 FF, I was trying to recall posts on another board from memory.

There wasn't a regular season to the ECAC. Everyone was basically an independent, with the ECAC having about 40 schools eligible for a regional tournaments, winners get NCAA automatic bids. Basically, if you look at the old conference standings from the mid-80s you can see who was in it:

The Big East formed with most the “best of the best” (shunning my boys)
The next level of basketball powers formed the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League, which is now the Atlantic 10.
Half the ECAC Metro Region split off and renamed themselves the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference (MAAC).
The remaining New England Region teams split off as the ECAC North, later renamed the America East.
The remaining ECAC Metro Region teams renamed themselves the Northeastern Conference (NEC)
The remaining ECAC South Region teams renamed themselves the Colonial Athletic Association (CAA).


Here’s the top 11 candidates, and their performance the decade before the Big East formation:
A: 226-88 (.719), 6 NCAA, 1 Elite 8, 1 Top 10 AP Finish
B: 207-85 (.709), 3 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
C: 224-92 (.709), 5 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
D: 198-117 (.629), 5 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four
E: 207-95 (.685), 7 NCAA, 3 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
F: 165-127 (.565) 2 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
G: 162-129 (.557), 2 NCAA
H: 147-135 (.521), 1 NCAA, Elite 8
I: 132-131 (.502), 0 NCAA
J: 138-145 (.487), 1 NCAA
K: 141-147 (.489), 0 NCAA

The Big East formed with A, C, D, E, F, G, H… and K. School I was added later.

School B was left out.

What's the old real estate saying - Location, location, location. Unfortunately, one thing that can't be changed is that St. Bonnie's is in Olean, NY, which is almost literally the middle of nowhere.

These 3 facts basically sum up the discussion.
Olean, NY is a town of 14,452 people. St. Bonaventure has an enrollment of 2,244. The Reilly Center seats 5,480.
Syracuse has a population of 145,170. Syracuse's undergrad enrollment is 14,532. The Carrier Dome seats 35,000 (for bball).

Syracuse actually has more undergrads than the entire town of Olean. And the nearest real city to Olean is over 1:20 away (Buffalo). Its as true now as it was when the conference was originally formed, the reality is unless you can pick up the entire campus and move it at least 50 miles in some direction, St. Bonaventure will likely never be a legitimate candidate.

[JPSchmack]

What's the old real estate saying - Location, location, location. Unfortunately, one thing that can't be changed is that St. Bonnie's is in Olean, NY, which is almost literally the middle of nowhere.

These 3 facts basically sum up the discussion.
Olean, NY is a town of 14,452 people. St. Bonaventure has an enrollment of 2,244. The Reilly Center seats 5,480.
Syracuse has a population of 145,170. Syracuse's undergrad enrollment is 14,532. The Carrier Dome seats 35,000 (for bball).

Syracuse actually has more undergrads than the entire town of Olean. And the nearest real city to Olean is over 1:20 away (Buffalo). Its as true now as it was when the conference was originally formed, the reality is unless you can pick up the entire campus and move it at least 50 miles in some direction, St. Bonaventure will likely never be a legitimate candidate.

Which remains in a main point in favor of the "Bona can bring Buffalo & Rochester." The alumni do not live in Olean. The alumni watch games on TV.

The size of the RC isn't an issue, either. That's another one of my favorite myths about the old Big East. The Big East didn't form because all those schools were national powers filling huge arenas. THEY GREW INTO THAT within the Big East:

2,500 McDonough (Georgetown, moved to Verizon in 1981-82)
2,600 Walsh (Seton Hall, moved to Brendan Byrne in 1985)
3,600 Hart Center (Holy Cross, invited to be a founding member)
4,122 Fitzgerald (Pitt, moved to Peterson in 2002)
4,400 Roberts Center (Boston College, moved to Conte Forum in 1988)
4,604 Greer (UConn, moved to Gampel in 1990)
5,602 Carnesecca (St. John’s, played only four BE games at MSG until 1983-84)
6,500 Pavilion (Villanova)
8,000 RAC (Rutgers, invited to Big East)
9,500 Manley (Syracuse, moved to Carrier in 1980)

[BEwannabe]

But if the Big East is looking for a patsy for in conferences losses then the Duquesne Dukes would win the honor going away. For starters Duquesne has a $260 mil endowment, 10,000 students, and are located in Pittsburgh.

[pki1998]

But if the Big East is looking for a patsy for in conferences losses then the Duquesne Dukes would win the honor going away. For starters Duquesne has a $260 mil endowment, 10,000 students, and are located in Pittsburgh.

Agreed this is something the JPSchmack doesn't understand. An expansion candidate has to be able to bring something to the Big East.

JPSchmack dedication to his team is impressive, but even if we did just add patsies there are still better options than St. Bonnies. Saint Louis, Duquesne, Detroit Mercy, Dayton (Wouldn't call them a patsy, but they generally do a good job in the OCC only to disappoint in conference), Canisius, Siena, Holy Cross, Loyola Maryland, Boston University, Northeastern University, Hartford, and Richmond come to mind. That's not to mention schools that are in the same market of a Big East school that would be better adds than St. Bonnies. The only problem is outside of adding teams outside of Dayton (and possibly Duquesne, Richmond, and Saint Louis), the average college basketball fan is going to scratch their heads and say what is the Big East thinking? The move would be mocked relentlessly on ESPN and elsewhere. In addition it would make the Big East seem like a mid major conference. So while I understand as a St Bonaventure Fan, you see all that the Big East can offer your school and you want in. But you can't honestly believe it would be in the Big East best interest to add St. Bonaventure.

[GreatDaneAttorney]

The Big East should really hold out on any expansion until some major issues in college athletics are resolved: the instability of both the ACC and Big XII, the unionization of athletes, and even the viability of college football at private universities.

I want to speak to that last item primarily. Can private schools even compete in football anymore? Increasingly, the college athletics arms race suggests an inevitability: private schools without a huge TV deal and/or large student and alumni populations will drift further behind the large, public universities in football and will eventually need to consider whether they should even field a team at all. There's actually ample evidence of this all around:

• ACC athletic budget comparison, shows Wake Forest losing money on their football program
  http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2012/ ... gets-10-11
• Syracuse University wrangles with a heavy debt load and financing athletic projects
  http://blog.syracuse.com/sports/2014/05 ... athle.html
• Miami struggles to remain competitive as its athletic budget relatively shrinks to half that of Florida and Florida St
  http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miam ... olumn.html

These issues at Wake, Syracuse, and Miami are amplified by the fact that the ACC can't get a larger TV deal directly from ESPN/Fox (it appears it'll always be near the bottom of the P5 in TV revenue) and that a conference network seems increasingly unlikely.

The Big East should sit back for a while and watch what happens. When the current TV deals and GORs expire, we might see Wake Forest, Miami, and Syracuse all on the expansion table. Meanwhile, the next Xavier, Butler, or Creighton is likely to emerge from the A-10 (or elsewhere). Within a decade, there'll be absolutely no shortage of expansion options.

EDIT: Of course, can't forget Boston College in all of this, but their athletic department actually appears fairly healthy. In 2011, they had fairly high student fees (http://www.bcinterruption.com/2011/4/28 ... udent-fees), but otherwise, their doesn't appear to be any panic about Boston College's ability to remain competitive (perhaps because they've never really been competitive outside of the occasional season here or there)

[Jet915]

If we are just gonna accept someone so they can be a patsy we would take SLU cause they fit the profile of a Big East school in every way except being good at basketball.