billyjack wrote:JPSchmack wrote:NovaBall wrote:St Bonaventure is no worse than St. John's. The Bonnie's could compete with Syracuse to see who is new York's team while Eddie Jordan and Chris Mullin wax poetic about the early 1980's and get their butts kicked game after game.
I'm not going to talk trash on any current Big East school. But St. Bonaventure was peers with Syracuse in the old ECAC, and had an intense, evenly matched annual rivalry. When the Big East was being organized, one of Gavitt's first calls was to his old frat brother, Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel.
Lo and behold, we weren't invited to the Big East and Syracuse hasn't played at the RC since Cherenko was running the USSR. Over time, revisionist history has made it sound like we weren't good enough (even though our Final Four banner was still fresh and SU hadn't been to one yet), or our TV market wasn't big enough (which is pretty insane when you consider that ESPN hadn't launched yet, so the networks were basically paying for the best teams, period).
I agree with JPSchmack on the part about St Bonaventure having a great program at least through the 70's.
By the late 70's though, Syracuse was the best team in Upstate NY. SU did make a Final Four in 75 (five years after St Bona already made one with Bob Lanier, one of the premier NBA centers with Milwaukee for 15 or so years, "the biggest feets in basketball").
Those mini-ECAC regional tourneys that I've babbled about a lot (I think they started once the NCAA field opened up to at-larges)... Upstate NY had one, and looking up the games it looks like they were held from 75 thru 79. Syracuse won each of the 5 tourneys, beating the Bonnies in the Upstate Finals in 75, 77, 78 and 79 (Syr beat Niagara in the 76 final).
Also, the Bonnies used to play PC every year, so they were a familiar name and I remember then as a talented team when I first paid attention in around 1977. I think they won the NIT back in 77, but not sure. St Bona also made the NCAA's in 78. NIT in 79.
If the original Big East had room for 2 Upstate NY teams, then St Bonaventure would have been a logical addition. Their remoteness I think destroyed their chances too, just too far from Buffalo. And yes, Gavitt was friends from college at Dartmouth with Crouthamel.
Having said all that, I like JPSchmack's contributions to this site. Different perspective but interesting. I'd like to get some history from him on the Upstate division... which teams were in it?... Syracuse, St Bona, Niagara, Canisius, Colgate... Siena? Anyone else?
JPSchmack wrote:billyjack wrote:If the original Big East had room for 2 Upstate NY teams, then St Bonaventure would have been a logical addition. Their remoteness I think destroyed their chances too, just too far from Buffalo. And yes, Gavitt was friends from college at Dartmouth with Crouthamel.
Having said all that, I like JPSchmack's contributions to this site. Different perspective but interesting. I'd like to get some history from him on the Upstate division... which teams were in it?... Syracuse, St Bona, Niagara, Canisius, Colgate... Siena? Anyone else?
Ah yes, my apologies on the 1975 FF, I was trying to recall posts on another board from memory.
There wasn't a regular season to the ECAC. Everyone was basically an independent, with the ECAC having about 40 schools eligible for a regional tournaments, winners get NCAA automatic bids. Basically, if you look at the old conference standings from the mid-80s you can see who was in it:
The Big East formed with most the “best of the best” (shunning my boys)
The next level of basketball powers formed the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League, which is now the Atlantic 10.
Half the ECAC Metro Region split off and renamed themselves the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference (MAAC).
The remaining New England Region teams split off as the ECAC North, later renamed the America East.
The remaining ECAC Metro Region teams renamed themselves the Northeastern Conference (NEC)
The remaining ECAC South Region teams renamed themselves the Colonial Athletic Association (CAA).
Here’s the top 11 candidates, and their performance the decade before the Big East formation:
A: 226-88 (.719), 6 NCAA, 1 Elite 8, 1 Top 10 AP Finish
B: 207-85 (.709), 3 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
C: 224-92 (.709), 5 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
D: 198-117 (.629), 5 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four
E: 207-95 (.685), 7 NCAA, 3 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
F: 165-127 (.565) 2 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
G: 162-129 (.557), 2 NCAA
H: 147-135 (.521), 1 NCAA, Elite 8
I: 132-131 (.502), 0 NCAA
J: 138-145 (.487), 1 NCAA
K: 141-147 (.489), 0 NCAA
The Big East formed with A, C, D, E, F, G, H… and K. School I was added later.
School B was left out.
JPSchmack wrote:billyjack wrote:If the original Big East had room for 2 Upstate NY teams, then St Bonaventure would have been a logical addition. Their remoteness I think destroyed their chances too, just too far from Buffalo. And yes, Gavitt was friends from college at Dartmouth with Crouthamel.
Having said all that, I like JPSchmack's contributions to this site. Different perspective but interesting. I'd like to get some history from him on the Upstate division... which teams were in it?... Syracuse, St Bona, Niagara, Canisius, Colgate... Siena? Anyone else?
Ah yes, my apologies on the 1975 FF, I was trying to recall posts on another board from memory.
There wasn't a regular season to the ECAC. Everyone was basically an independent, with the ECAC having about 40 schools eligible for a regional tournaments, winners get NCAA automatic bids. Basically, if you look at the old conference standings from the mid-80s you can see who was in it:
The Big East formed with most the “best of the best” (shunning my boys)
The next level of basketball powers formed the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League, which is now the Atlantic 10.
Half the ECAC Metro Region split off and renamed themselves the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference (MAAC).
The remaining New England Region teams split off as the ECAC North, later renamed the America East.
The remaining ECAC Metro Region teams renamed themselves the Northeastern Conference (NEC)
The remaining ECAC South Region teams renamed themselves the Colonial Athletic Association (CAA).
Here’s the top 11 candidates, and their performance the decade before the Big East formation:
A: 226-88 (.719), 6 NCAA, 1 Elite 8, 1 Top 10 AP Finish
B: 207-85 (.709), 3 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
C: 224-92 (.709), 5 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
D: 198-117 (.629), 5 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four
E: 207-95 (.685), 7 NCAA, 3 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
F: 165-127 (.565) 2 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
G: 162-129 (.557), 2 NCAA
H: 147-135 (.521), 1 NCAA, Elite 8
I: 132-131 (.502), 0 NCAA
J: 138-145 (.487), 1 NCAA
K: 141-147 (.489), 0 NCAA
The Big East formed with A, C, D, E, F, G, H… and K. School I was added later.
School B was left out.
CoachK wrote:What's the old real estate saying - Location, location, location. Unfortunately, one thing that can't be changed is that St. Bonnie's is in Olean, NY, which is almost literally the middle of nowhere.
These 3 facts basically sum up the discussion.
Olean, NY is a town of 14,452 people. St. Bonaventure has an enrollment of 2,244. The Reilly Center seats 5,480.
Syracuse has a population of 145,170. Syracuse's undergrad enrollment is 14,532. The Carrier Dome seats 35,000 (for bball).
Syracuse actually has more undergrads than the entire town of Olean. And the nearest real city to Olean is over 1:20 away (Buffalo). Its as true now as it was when the conference was originally formed, the reality is unless you can pick up the entire campus and move it at least 50 miles in some direction, St. Bonaventure will likely never be a legitimate candidate.
BEwannabe wrote:But if the Big East is looking for a patsy for in conferences losses then the Duquesne Dukes would win the honor going away. For starters Duquesne has a $260 mil endowment, 10,000 students, and are located in Pittsburgh.
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