Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[NovaBall]

St Bonaventure is no worse than St. John's. The Bonnie's could compete with Syracuse to see who is new York's team while Eddie Jordan and Chris Mullin wax poetic about the early 1980's and get their butts kicked game after game.

[JPSchmack]

St Bonaventure is no worse than St. John's. The Bonnie's could compete with Syracuse to see who is new York's team while Eddie Jordan and Chris Mullin wax poetic about the early 1980's and get their butts kicked game after game.

I'm not going to talk trash on any current Big East school. But St. Bonaventure was peers with Syracuse in the old ECAC, and had an intense, evenly matched annual rivalry. When the Big East was being organized, one of Gavitt's first calls was to his old frat brother, Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel.

Lo and behold, we weren't invited to the Big East and Syracuse hasn't played at the RC since Cherenko was running the USSR. Over time, revisionist history has made it sound like we weren't good enough (even though our Final Four banner was still fresh and SU hadn't been to one yet), or our TV market wasn't big enough (which is pretty insane when you consider that ESPN hadn't launched yet, so the networks were basically paying for the best teams, period).

[JPSchmack]

I vote that the Big 12 test this theory by expanding to include Tulane and Rice. By the same logic, it should help elevate Oklahoma State, Kansas State and TCU in basketball, as well as all of the teams in football (perhaps maybe not Kansas, but that's another story).

It would. They'd get their 8th team in that way.

The funny thing about JP is his entire reason for wanting Bonaventure to get in is so it can, after a few years, become one of the strong teams. He has outright admitted this fact in the past. So his entire argument is not to provide weakness, but ultimately add strength.

Which he can't sell, because we can buy higher quality strength in several other places.

Which makes his whole argument pointless.

We've won the A-10 regular season zero times. We've had a bye to the quarterfinals of the A-10 tournament as a top 4 seed twice. Yeah, we'll oust you 10 in no time and take over the Big East Conference!

Best case for you, we're your doormat. Worst case for you, we're exactly what Marquette, DePaul, Creighton and Seton Hall were last year, which still gets more bids for the Big East.

[Bill Marsh]

St Bonaventure is no worse than St. John's. The Bonnie's could compete with Syracuse to see who is new York's team while Eddie Jordan and Chris Mullin wax poetic about the early 1980's and get their butts kicked game after game.

Nonsense. St. Bonaventure is much worse than St. John's and can't compete with Syracuse. The Bonnie's are 3-23 all time in their series with the Orange and haven't won against them since 1981, 35 years ago. At. John's just beat Syracuse for the 2nd year in a row and is 39-51 all time In their series with them. The difference is night and day.

[Masterofreality]

Fox is salivating over wedging into that massive Olean/Bradford/Salamanca TV market.

[DudeAnon]

JP, we are trying to build a brand. Can't count how many times I have heard a BE coach say this conference is as good as it ever was. Now they are obviously just standing up for their conference. But they can at least say that when the schools playing have either current stature or are original Big East members. St. Bonaventure is simply not either of those. If we were to add a school for the sake of more tourney picks then we wait until one is available that doesn't damage the already vulnerable brand.

[Westbrook#36]

St Bonaventure is no worse than St. John's. The Bonnie's could compete with Syracuse to see who is new York's team while Eddie Jordan and Chris Mullin wax poetic about the early 1980's and get their butts kicked game after game.

Nonsense. St. Bonaventure is much worse than St. John's and can't compete with Syracuse. The Bonnie's are 3-23 all time in their series with the Orange and haven't won against them since 1981, 35 years ago. At. John's just beat Syracuse for the 2nd year in a row and is 39-51 all time In their series with them. The difference is night and day.

Bill that's just Ball fishing with bait, and some spillover from another thread.

[billyjack]

St Bonaventure is no worse than St. John's. The Bonnie's could compete with Syracuse to see who is new York's team while Eddie Jordan and Chris Mullin wax poetic about the early 1980's and get their butts kicked game after game.

I'm not going to talk trash on any current Big East school. But St. Bonaventure was peers with Syracuse in the old ECAC, and had an intense, evenly matched annual rivalry. When the Big East was being organized, one of Gavitt's first calls was to his old frat brother, Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel.

Lo and behold, we weren't invited to the Big East and Syracuse hasn't played at the RC since Cherenko was running the USSR. Over time, revisionist history has made it sound like we weren't good enough (even though our Final Four banner was still fresh and SU hadn't been to one yet), or our TV market wasn't big enough (which is pretty insane when you consider that ESPN hadn't launched yet, so the networks were basically paying for the best teams, period).

I agree with JPSchmack on the part about St Bonaventure having a great program at least through the 70's.

By the late 70's though, Syracuse was the best team in Upstate NY. SU did make a Final Four in 75 (five years after St Bona already made one with Bob Lanier, one of the premier NBA centers with Milwaukee for 15 or so years, "the biggest feets in basketball").

Those mini-ECAC regional tourneys that I've babbled about a lot (I think they started once the NCAA field opened up to at-larges)... Upstate NY had one, and looking up the games it looks like they were held from 75 thru 79. Syracuse won each of the 5 tourneys, beating the Bonnies in the Upstate Finals in 75, 77, 78 and 79 (Syr beat Niagara in the 76 final).

Also, the Bonnies used to play PC every year, so they were a familiar name and I remember then as a talented team when I first paid attention in around 1977. I think they won the NIT back in 77, but not sure. St Bona also made the NCAA's in 78. NIT in 79.

If the original Big East had room for 2 Upstate NY teams, then St Bonaventure would have been a logical addition. Their remoteness I think destroyed their chances too, just too far from Buffalo. And yes, Gavitt was friends from college at Dartmouth with Crouthamel.

Having said all that, I like JPSchmack's contributions to this site. Different perspective but interesting. I'd like to get some history from him on the Upstate division... which teams were in it?... Syracuse, St Bona, Niagara, Canisius, Colgate... Siena? Anyone else?

[adoraz]

St Bonaventure is no worse than St. John's. The Bonnie's could compete with Syracuse to see who is new York's team while Eddie Jordan and Chris Mullin wax poetic about the early 1980's and get their butts kicked game after game.

Factually inaccurate. Can we ban this troll?

[JPSchmack]

If the original Big East had room for 2 Upstate NY teams, then St Bonaventure would have been a logical addition. Their remoteness I think destroyed their chances too, just too far from Buffalo. And yes, Gavitt was friends from college at Dartmouth with Crouthamel.

Having said all that, I like JPSchmack's contributions to this site. Different perspective but interesting. I'd like to get some history from him on the Upstate division... which teams were in it?... Syracuse, St Bona, Niagara, Canisius, Colgate... Siena? Anyone else?

Ah yes, my apologies on the 1975 FF, I was trying to recall posts on another board from memory.

There wasn't a regular season to the ECAC. Everyone was basically an independent, with the ECAC having about 40 schools eligible for a regional tournaments, winners get NCAA automatic bids. Basically, if you look at the old conference standings from the mid-80s you can see who was in it:

The Big East formed with most the “best of the best” (shunning my boys)
The next level of basketball powers formed the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League, which is now the Atlantic 10.
Half the ECAC Metro Region split off and renamed themselves the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference (MAAC).
The remaining New England Region teams split off as the ECAC North, later renamed the America East.
The remaining ECAC Metro Region teams renamed themselves the Northeastern Conference (NEC)
The remaining ECAC South Region teams renamed themselves the Colonial Athletic Association (CAA).



Here’s the top 11 candidates, and their performance the decade before the Big East formation:
A: 226-88 (.719), 6 NCAA, 1 Elite 8, 1 Top 10 AP Finish
B: 207-85 (.709), 3 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
C: 224-92 (.709), 5 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
D: 198-117 (.629), 5 NCAA, 2 Elite 8, 1 Final Four
E: 207-95 (.685), 7 NCAA, 3 Elite 8, 1 Final Four, 3 Top 10 AP Finish
F: 165-127 (.565) 2 NCAA, 1 Elite 8
G: 162-129 (.557), 2 NCAA
H: 147-135 (.521), 1 NCAA, Elite 8
I: 132-131 (.502), 0 NCAA
J: 138-145 (.487), 1 NCAA
K: 141-147 (.489), 0 NCAA

The Big East formed with A, C, D, E, F, G, H… and K. School I was added later.

School B was left out.