Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[jaxalum]

What's hilarious is going back and looking at the early HLOH threads from right before the league was formed. People were saying that programs like Providence should be booted and Marq. was lauded as one of the pillars of the league (rightfully so because of their previous decade of excellence). Now Prov has a BE championship, a top 10 team and soon to be 3 straight years in the tourney. Meanwhile, Marq has struggled (that's not to say they will moving forward, but just that they have had a couple down years).

Creighton is a terrific addition to this league. No one here knows for sure what programs will look like 3, 5 10 years from now. But with their fan support, facilities and commitment to basketball, I can't see them staying down for long.

It's easy to puff out your chest with short terms success. Just be careful which fan bases you kick on the way up, as you might just see them do the same a year or two down the road. What I'd say to (some) X fans...act like you've been there (had success) before.

I think I can safely speak for 99.999999% of Xavier fans in saying we do not hold the view concerning Creighton being replaced, or ANY current member for that matter. I feel ridiculous even writing something so asinine. I would maintain that the feelings concerning Creighton (and Butler) are comprehensively and thoroughly contrary to those expressed earlier in this thread. I would also venture to say that there is a certain camaraderie between X, Creighton, and Butler fans, as we are the "newbies" to an already established league that we had been building for years to receive that coveted invite, both on the institutional level as well as the court. As someone else commented earlier, it is extremely insulting to speculate or opine on the removal of an existing member.

So my apologies to Creighton, or any other league members that were even the least bit annoyed by such foolish and cretinous remarks. Creighton was/is a fantastic choice/fit to join the Big East (top notch academics, unequaled fan support, on court success) and their fans have proven to be intelligent and fun posters on this forum....even you Gtmo Blue . And its definitely on my bucket list to take in a day in Omaha and a game at CenturyLink.

Again, I think I can speak for the majority of X fans in saying that we are completely vested in the the success of each and every team in this league. I catch 95% of OOC games that our league members play and get gassed up rooting for a W in every one of them. I NEVER did that while X was in the A-10.

Creighton is a terrific addition to this league. No one here knows for sure what programs will look like 3, 5 10 years from now. But with their fan support, facilities and commitment to basketball, I can't see them staying down for long.

It's easy to puff out your chest with short terms success. Just be careful which fan bases you kick on the way up, as you might just see them do the same a year or two down the road. What I'd say to (some) X fans...act like you've been there (had success) before.

[/quote][b]

I don't know what X fans you are referring to that kick fan bases, although there are your bad apples in every group. I think we know more than most how fine of a line there is between reaching the Tournament/"x" amount of Sweet 16s and being a cellar dweller. We've been considered a stepping stone job for years, and due to our success, our coaches get poached more than most by top programs. And every time we go through that horribly stressful process, I think there is no way we will be able to hire someone that will surpass the successes of the outgoing coach. Gillen (Providence) Prosser (Wake Forrest) Matta (Ohio State) Miller (Arizona) and Mack, who is involved in EVERY top job opening every summer. Essentially, we realize we are one hire away from sucking for five plus years or more.

I think it's fair to say that the goal of the Big East as an enterprise is to become the best basketball conference in the country. In regards to expansion, ten is perfect in my opinion. There is no need to expand just for the sake of expanding. No one to this point has presented bulletproof reasoning as to how and why expansion would be bring us closer to the aforementioned goal. Of course there are no brainer scenarios: i.e Notre Dame comes calling, certain schools from the F5 break off...all highly unlikely scenarios.

Possibilities, although unlikely, worthy of due diligence: Uconn: They realize football is a non-starter. Gonzaga: Perfect fit in every way except location. I think the Big East powers that be need to do everything possible to make this work. Other conferences have member schools all over the country. Logistics, while a healthy sized obstacle, is the ONLY obstacle.

Every other school after these are non-starters if we continue to stick with the notion that we are looking to make the Big East the best basketball conference in the country. Dayton possesses some regional relevance at best/zero national relevance or footprint. They are an outlier to the Cincinnati market which is already occupied by Xavier, and roughly two hours from Indianapolis (Bulter). The only reason Dayton is brought up in these discussions is because of LACK OF OPTIONS that fit the very specific candidate guidelines in place. No regular season conference or tournament titles and one run in the tourney in the last twenty years plus years. And chances are they would be blocked by Xavier, and possibly Butler as well.

St Louis fits the academic mold, has great facilities, and of all the "candidates", possesses the best location , as St. Louis is one of the premiere sports cities in the country. It would be a coup for the Big East to add this city to the likes of Chicago, New York, D.C., Indy, etc. The obvious, and major obstacle, is the lack of on court success. I have no idea of their present commitment to their basketball program.

You have VCU, Richmond, Davidson, Holy Cross, Boston Univ, Northeastern....but, like UD and St Louis, NONE of these schools would "move the needle" if added (overused cliche on this thread alone). I want a team(s) that will significantly add to the national brand that is the Big East. Schools that have no real national relevance can't do that. Gonzaga could. Uconn could. If the casual college basketball fan takes notice when/if we expand, then its more than likely the right choice was made. Adding the likes of a Richmond, Dayton, Davidson, would create zero buzz, and the overwhelming perception is that we expanded just for the sake of expanding. The Big East is in a great position right now as we have the luxury of waiting. 6-7 years from now the entire landscape of college sports could be unrecognizable. A F5 could could become available. The logistics concerning Gonzaga could be worked out. Uconn....

If we expand, I want the school(s) chosen to be considered "home run" type schools. We can afford to wait, and should.

[UD Flyer Fanatic]

"Dayton possesses some regional relevance at best/zero national relevance or footprint. They are an outlier to the Cincinnati market which is already occupied by Xavier, and roughly two hours from Indianapolis (Bulter). The only reason Dayton is brought up in these discussions is because of LACK OF OPTIONS that fit the very specific candidate guidelines in place. No regular season conference or tournament titles and one run in the tourney in the last twenty years plus years. And chances are they would be blocked by Xavier, and possibly Butler as well".

Oh well.... Maybe my fantasy of reading a HLOH thread one day on expansion and receiving support from any single X fan may come true- nah... that's just me thinking silly while I'm getting hyped for the Bengals game tomorrow night... but all good- you guys earned it without doubt. Perhaps the BE will at least schedule us one day?

[_lh]

What's hilarious is going back and looking at the early HLOH threads from right before the league was formed. People were saying that programs like Providence should be booted and Marq. was lauded as one of the pillars of the league (rightfully so because of their previous decade of excellence). Now Prov has a BE championship, a top 10 team and soon to be 3 straight years in the tourney. Meanwhile, Marq has struggled (that's not to say they will moving forward, but just that they have had a couple down years).

Creighton is a terrific addition to this league. No one here knows for sure what programs will look like 3, 5 10 years from now. But with their fan support, facilities and commitment to basketball, I can't see them staying down for long.

It's easy to puff out your chest with short terms success. Just be careful which fan bases you kick on the way up, as you might just see them do the same a year or two down the road. What I'd say to (some) X fans...act like you've been there (had success) before.

I think I can safely speak for 99.999999% of Xavier fans in saying we do not hold the view concerning Creighton being replaced, or ANY current member for that matter. I feel ridiculous even writing something so asinine. I would maintain that the feelings concerning Creighton (and Butler) are comprehensively and thoroughly contrary to those expressed earlier in this thread. I would also venture to say that there is a certain camaraderie between X, Creighton, and Butler fans, as we are the "newbies" to an already established league that we had been building for years to receive that coveted invite, both on the institutional level as well as the court. As someone else commented earlier, it is extremely insulting to speculate or opine on the removal of an existing member.

So my apologies to Creighton, or any other league members that were even the least bit annoyed by such foolish and cretinous remarks. Creighton was/is a fantastic choice/fit to join the Big East (top notch academics, unequaled fan support, on court success) and their fans have proven to be intelligent and fun posters on this forum....even you Gtmo Blue . And its definitely on my bucket list to take in a day in Omaha and a game at CenturyLink.

Again, I think I can speak for the majority of X fans in saying that we are completely vested in the the success of each and every team in this league. I catch 95% of OOC games that our league members play and get gassed up rooting for a W in every one of them. I NEVER did that while X was in the A-10.

Creighton is a terrific addition to this league. No one here knows for sure what programs will look like 3, 5 10 years from now. But with their fan support, facilities and commitment to basketball, I can't see them staying down for long.

It's easy to puff out your chest with short terms success. Just be careful which fan bases you kick on the way up, as you might just see them do the same a year or two down the road. What I'd say to (some) X fans...act like you've been there (had success) before.

[b]

I don't know what X fans you are referring to that kick fan bases, although there are your bad apples in every group. I think we know more than most how fine of a line there is between reaching the Tournament/"x" amount of Sweet 16s and being a cellar dweller. We've been considered a stepping stone job for years, and due to our success, our coaches get poached more than most by top programs. And every time we go through that horribly stressful process, I think there is no way we will be able to hire someone that will surpass the successes of the outgoing coach. Gillen (Providence) Prosser (Wake Forrest) Matta (Ohio State) Miller (Arizona) and Mack, who is involved in EVERY top job opening every summer. Essentially, we realize we are one hire away from sucking for five plus years or more.

I think it's fair to say that the goal of the Big East as an enterprise is to become the best basketball conference in the country. In regards to expansion, ten is perfect in my opinion. There is no need to expand just for the sake of expanding. No one to this point has presented bulletproof reasoning as to how and why expansion would be bring us closer to the aforementioned goal. Of course there are no brainer scenarios: i.e Notre Dame comes calling, certain schools from the F5 break off...all highly unlikely scenarios.

Possibilities, although unlikely, worthy of due diligence: Uconn: They realize football is a non-starter. Gonzaga: Perfect fit in every way except location. I think the Big East powers that be need to do everything possible to make this work. Other conferences have member schools all over the country. Logistics, while a healthy sized obstacle, is the ONLY obstacle.

Every other school after these are non-starters if we continue to stick with the notion that we are looking to make the Big East the best basketball conference in the country. Dayton possesses some regional relevance at best/zero national relevance or footprint. They are an outlier to the Cincinnati market which is already occupied by Xavier, and roughly two hours from Indianapolis (Bulter). The only reason Dayton is brought up in these discussions is because of LACK OF OPTIONS that fit the very specific candidate guidelines in place. No regular season conference or tournament titles and one run in the tourney in the last twenty years plus years. And chances are they would be blocked by Xavier, and possibly Butler as well.

St Louis fits the academic mold, has great facilities, and of all the "candidates", possesses the best location , as St. Louis is one of the premiere sports cities in the country. It would be a coup for the Big East to add this city to the likes of Chicago, New York, D.C., Indy, etc. The obvious, and major obstacle, is the lack of on court success. I have no idea of their present commitment to their basketball program.

You have VCU, Richmond, Davidson, Holy Cross, Boston Univ, Northeastern....but, like UD and St Louis, NONE of these schools would "move the needle" if added (overused cliche on this thread alone). I want a team(s) that will significantly add to the national brand that is the Big East. Schools that have no real national relevance can't do that. Gonzaga could. Uconn could. If the casual college basketball fan takes notice when/if we expand, then its more than likely the right choice was made. Adding the likes of a Richmond, Dayton, Davidson, would create zero buzz, and the overwhelming perception is that we expanded just for the sake of expanding. The Big East is in a great position right now as we have the luxury of waiting. 6-7 years from now the entire landscape of college sports could be unrecognizable. A F5 could could become available. The logistics concerning Gonzaga could be worked out. Uconn....

If we expand, I want the school(s) chosen to be considered "home run" type schools. We can afford to wait, and should.[/quote]

Spot on and fantastic post.

[DudeAnon]

I have nothing against Creighton, just got emotional because of one poster, I'm sorry.

[GumbyDamnit!]

I have nothing against Creighton, just got emotional because of one poster, I'm sorry.

Good job DudeAnon.

[mpwalsh8]

In this week's ESPN College Hoops podcast Andy Katz has discussion with Bob Huggins and the topic of the Big 12 expansion comes up. In particular, Katz mentions both Cincy and UConn as Big 12 expansion candidates. Huggins pretty much craps all over the idea of the Big 12 expanding as ANY candidate must bring something financial to divide the pie by 12 instead of by 10 make sense. He essentially says neither UConn nor Cincy do that. He likes the league the way it is and completely dismisses the notion that WVU needs a travel partner.

Listen: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14508617

[notkirkcameron]

I agree with most of your points except this one.

St Louis fits the academic mold, has great facilities, and of all the "candidates", possesses the best location , as St. Louis is one of the premiere sports cities in the country. It would be a coup for the Big East to add this city to the likes of Chicago, New York, D.C., Indy, etc. The obvious, and major obstacle, is the lack of on court success. I have no idea of their present commitment to their basketball program.

Perhaps I can shine some light. In addition to being a Marquette grad I'm also a graduate of SLU law school; I lived in St. Louis for three years.

St. Louis is not a great market in the absence of on-court success. In my experience, St. Louisans will often proclaim the Gateway to the West as "the best Sports City in America" (Despite the moniker only being given by The Sporting News....in 2001.)


While living there, I found the suggestion laughable, and when I challenged it, "Well who is?" was the local retort. All I could say was "I don't know, but to even be in the discussion, I'd think you should have a team in all Big 4 leagues, should probably have an MLS team, and should probably have at least one major college team dominating the local market. St. Louis has none of those." Further, if the Rams leave St. Louis (which it is looking likely that they will), St. Louis will be the only city in North America to lose FOUR different Big 4 teams to relocation since 1950.

It is a Cardinals town first through 347th, and only then, is it maybe also a Blues town. The Rams are supported lukewarmly at best. SLU is barely a blip on the sports radar, despite having tons of alumni in the city.

Around the time of the Big East's Reformation, SLU appeared to be an attractive candidate. They were an institutional fit. They had a newly completed on-campus arena (which having been to both, I think compares well with Cintas Center). The team was on the upswing, making three consecutive NCAA Tournaments.

However, SLU's administration/athletic department appears to make poor decisions. The most obvious of which was the decision to join the Atlantic 10 Conference. In early 2010, I was fortunate enough to attend a "SLU Basketball Roundtable" with Rick Majerus. It was a joy as a Marquette alumnus and a college basketball fan to hear Coach Majerus speak for the better part of an hour (while dressed in all sweats, and eating three pieces of pizza at the same time stacked on top of one another like a pizza sandwich. I wish I was making this up).

Majerus bluntly compared the decision for SLU to join the A-10 with "the decision to send troops to Vietnam. It was made on bad information, and it's been a disaster ever since." Majerus complained about the travel that was required of SLU as the westernmost team in the conference, with its closest geographic rival being Xavier. Recruiting suffered by playing schools no one had ever heard of, and "our alumni don't exactly get fired up about beating Fordham and Rhode Island." Coach Majerus even challenged the room full of about 50 SLU basketball diehards to name all 14 teams in the A-10. It took the group...again...of diehards... nearly 5 minutes to do so.

Majerus even went so far as to say "SLU should pull out of the A-10, pay whatever penalty is needed, and set up shop in the Missouri Valley Conference while we wait for the football members to leave the Big East. Then the Big East will start looking for new members, and we'll be well positioned. In the meantime, we'll be in the center of the Valley, and will be able to build local rivalries with schools our alumni have heard of (SMS, Southern Illinois, Bradley, Creighton, etc.)" He proved prescient in that regard. SLU didn't leave the A-10, and the Big East eventually started looking for new members. Who knows what might have happened had Majerus gotten SLU into the Valley?

The second poor decision was the decision to bring on Jim Crews as head coach upon Majerus' passing. He had the interim label removed, but it's very easy to see who the brains of the operation was.

Year Coach Record Conference Record and Finish
2007–08 Rick Majerus 16–15 7–9 9th (tie)
2008–09 Rick Majerus 18–14 8–8 8th
2009–10 Rick Majerus 23–13 11–5 4th CBI Runnerup
2010–11 Rick Majerus 12–19 6–10 10th (tie) (Two players were kicked off the team after being accused of sexual assault).
2011–12 Rick Majerus 26–8 12–4 2nd NCAA 3rd round
2012–13 Jim Crews 28–7 13–3 1st NCAA 3rd round
2013–14 Jim Crews 27–7 13–3 1st NCAA 3rd round
2014-15 Jim Crews 11-21 3-15 14th
2015-16 Jim Crews 6-8 1-1

Attendance has taken a dive, correlating with the lack of success. Attendance has dropped almost 17% since the last NCAA Tournament team.

2010-11: 6,299
2011-12: 7,757
2012-13: 7,673
2013-14: 8,428
2014-15: 7,032

As a market, St. Louis is falling. Since 1950, STL has the single largest percentage loss of population in the United States. Detroit is second. DETROIT. IS. SECOND. In 1950, St. Louis was home to 856,976 people and was the 8th-largest city in the country. In 2010, it was home to 319,294. St. Louis has lost 62.7% of its population. Detroit only lost 61.4%. The only Big East market that lost more than 27% of its population since 1950 is Cincinnati (41.1%).

Could SLU be a sleeping giant? Maybe. Who knows. But the answer is likely not. Those three NCAA Tournament berths in the 2010s represent a third of the program's NCAA tournament appearances, and 60% of their NCAA Tournament wins (3 of 5). It will be telling this offseason if Crews does not get the sack. It is clear that he has failed to capitalize on SLU's momentum, and could only win with Majerus' guys.

[jfan]

I have nothing against Creighton, just got emotional because of one poster, I'm sorry.

Good job DudeAnon.

+1

[ohiohsbball]

In this week's ESPN College Hoops podcast Andy Katz has discussion with Bob Huggins and the topic of the Big 12 expansion comes up. In particular, Katz mentions both Cincy and UConn as Big 12 expansion candidates. Huggins pretty much craps all over the idea of the Big 12 expanding as ANY candidate must bring something financial to divide the pie by 12 instead of by 10 make sense. He essentially says neither UConn nor Cincy do that. He likes the league the way it is and completely dismisses the notion that WVU needs a travel partner.

Listen: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14508617

I also saw that, but honestly don't buy anything of what Huggy Bear says. In just the first year, there was an article I read (I'll try to find and post) that West Virginia is getting beat up on travel with other sports. Cincy crapped all over him when he was let go, so of course he will not like the idea of Cincinnati going to the Big 12.

I can't believe there are over 130 pages of this; some of it is good read, but people still with the pipe dream of Uconn dropping football is completely unrealistic, especially since they just went to a bowl game..

[NJRedman]

In this week's ESPN College Hoops podcast Andy Katz has discussion with Bob Huggins and the topic of the Big 12 expansion comes up. In particular, Katz mentions both Cincy and UConn as Big 12 expansion candidates. Huggins pretty much craps all over the idea of the Big 12 expanding as ANY candidate must bring something financial to divide the pie by 12 instead of by 10 make sense. He essentially says neither UConn nor Cincy do that. He likes the league the way it is and completely dismisses the notion that WVU needs a travel partner.

Listen: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14508617

I also saw that, but honestly don't buy anything of what Huggy Bear says. In just the first year, there was an article I read (I'll try to find and post) that West Virginia is getting beat up on travel with other sports. Cincy crapped all over him when he was let go, so of course he will not like the idea of Cincinnati going to the Big 12.

I can't believe there are over 130 pages of this; some of it is good read, but people still with the pipe dream of Uconn dropping football is completely unrealistic, especially since they just went to a bowl game..

If they (UConn) get locked out of the P5 and 2 AAC teams get an invite to the Big XII which could lead to the AAC taking a big hit to their TV contract which could lead to UConn taking a very long look at their future as a FBS FB school. Going to a Bowl game has nothing to do with their future in FBS. Making as much as the MAC or CUSA doesn't make it reasonable to stay at that level when they have a very real option of going to a conference where they will make more money, play in a better BBall league with actual geographic and historic rivalries with. They are chasing the P5 money and if they don't get that the BBall faction will become louder about getting into the best conference for their true money sport.