State of St. John's

[NovaBall]

I would guarantee that the 2007 Depaul team beats this SJU team. See this is what I'm talking about irrational hatred and double standards that you have. Yes Depaul has contributed the least by a long shot and yes they've been terrible but you want to take a program that's already bad and everyone knows it then you ignore and downplay the very few positives that they have had over the past decade.

The 2007 DePaul NIt team may have been better than the 2016 Johnnies. So what? the 2016 johnnies have contributed more to the league than our Chicago franchise has in an entire decade (or at least as much if you think the Kansas win was as big). Nevermind that the 2015 johnnies contributed way more than the Chicago franchise has as well.

I don't hate DePaul. I would rather them be good. But even in St. John's worst years they still contribute more than what DePaul can contribute in their best year.

[NovaBall]

And DePaul's teams in the early 80s would beat ANY Nova team ever. Forget the early tournament losses. You just are too young to know better.

Wrong.

Heck, your mighty 1981 team lost to Saint Joseph's (PA), a team that the week early Nova beat by double digits.

And Randy Foye was better than any DePaul player ever. He would throw down on George Mikan.

[MUBoxer]

I would guarantee that the 2007 Depaul team beats this SJU team. See this is what I'm talking about irrational hatred and double standards that you have. Yes Depaul has contributed the least by a long shot and yes they've been terrible but you want to take a program that's already bad and everyone knows it then you ignore and downplay the very few positives that they have had over the past decade.

The 2007 DePaul NIt team may have been better than the 2016 Johnnies. So what? the 2016 johnnies have contributed more to the league than our Chicago franchise has in an entire decade (or at least as much if you think the Kansas win was as big). Nevermind that the 2015 johnnies contributed way more than the Chicago franchise has as well.

I don't hate DePaul. I would rather them be good. But even in St. John's worst years they still contribute more than what DePaul can contribute in their best year.

So then you're saying if SJU finishes terribly, continues to lose to mid majors and completely pulls down the RPI of the Big East that because they beat Cuse (even if Cuse doesn't make the tournament) they've done more to help the the Conference than a team that was actually pretty darn close to being an NCAA team made the postseason and actually beat tournament teams? If that is what you're saying then I must send you back to my post regarding logic.

And DemonLS while those Aguire and Cummings teams were good I don't think they could beat every nova team ever. Probably a most of the nova teams but then again couldn't most teams in the conference say "our best team ever would've beaten most your teams!" I mean we've all had some pretty darn good teams.

[NovaBall]

So then you're saying if SJU finishes terribly, continues to lose to mid majors and completely pulls down the RPI of the Big East that because they beat Cuse (even if Cuse doesn't make the tournament) they've done more to help the the Conference than a team that was actually pretty darn close to being an NCAA team made the postseason and actually beat tournament teams? If that is what you're saying then I must send you back to my post regarding logic.

Yes

The 2007 DePaul team was whatever. They were not trash like their recent years, but they didn't mean anything. Just another NIT team finishing in the bottom half of the conference. The type of team that would get a coach like Steve Lappas fired.

The one win against Cuse this year by St. John's was absolutely bigger for the league than a 20 win NIT team.

If you don't understand why, that's fine. But that just tells me you don't understand the dynamic of the northeast college hoops scene.


It is similar to Marquette beating Wisconsin this year in Madison. Wisconsin is terrible this year, but that is still a bigger win than anything DePaul has contributed in its decade in the conference (or equal to their one big win against Kansas).

Now if DePaul's win had come against Kansas THIS year, I would be singing a different tune. But a 2007 win against Kansas the week after Kansas lost to Oral Roberts at a time when the Big East was doing what it was doing is not as significant as Marquette beating last year's national runner up at Madison or the Johnnies beating Cuse at the Garden this year.

[HoosierPal]

And DePaul's teams in the early 80s would beat ANY Nova team ever. Forget the early tournament losses. You just are too young to know better.

Wrong.

Heck, your mighty 1981 team lost to Saint Joseph's (PA), a team that the week early Nova beat by double digits.

And Randy Foye was better than any DePaul player ever. He would throw down on George Mikan.

I could care less about most of this "mine's bigger than yours" conversation, but for ANYONE to remotely suggest that Randy Foye was a better player than George Mikan, really?... Mikan was 2X College Player of the Year, 3X All American, and voted as one of the top 50 players in the NBA during their 50th Anniversary season. Foye would be grateful to hold open a door for Mikan. I have zero interest in Villanova over DePaul or vice versa, but come on NovaBall, you are better than this. Respect the game.

[redmen9194]

Not wanting to dip my toe in the water too much but let me say this about Syracuse and the Big East and the importance of being them at anytime. When the media talks about the "Old Big East" and how the "Big East died", they are talking about one school leaving the conference - Syracuse. If Syracuse was our 11th school right now, they would not be referring to the Big East as having somehow died. It wasn't Pitt, or West Virginia, or Louisville who put the final nail in the coffin, it was 'Cuse. They had the coach who was here in the beginning. They had the fan base that traveled up and down the eastern seaboard. How would the "New Big East" hold on to MSG without the Syracuse name at the Garden. And make no mistake, Syracuse fans were very torn about leaving. They recruited NYC, Philly and DC. They wanted to not only be in those cities but win in those cities. Especially in New York - if you win there fans will come out. If you don't, your seats will be empty and it doesn't matter if you are the Knicks, Yankees, Mets or St. John's. While beating Kansas is always a great thing, the Big East needs to beat the schools that walked. Syracuse has played six games against he Big East since leaving. In the first year they beat Nova at the Dome and the Johnnies at MSG. Since then they have lost four straight - to Nova in Philly and the Johnnies in the Dome last season and to the Hoyas at Verizon and the Johnnies at the Garden trhis year. Syracuse is not a bad team this season - so I don;t know where that is coming from as they have played some very good teams and won. But it is more important for the league to beat them than to beat Kansas. It just is. It drives a stake in their heart as well as the ACC which tried to destroy the Big East. The Johnnies are not good this year. They will be within the next two years - but they are not now. But the win against Syracuse is significant - significant for St. John''s and very significant for the league.

[NovaBall]

I could care less about most of this "mine's bigger than yours" conversation, but for ANYONE to remotely suggest that Randy Foye was a better player than George Mikan, really?... Mikan was 2X College Player of the Year, 3X All American, and voted as one of the top 50 players in the NBA during their 50th Anniversary season. Foye would be grateful to hold open a door for Mikan. I have zero interest in Villanova over DePaul or vice versa, but come on NovaBall, you are better than this. Respect the game.

I respect the game, but George Mikan was a 6-10 240 lb center whose glasses would fall off when Randy Foye would try to cross him up and take it to the rack. Kind of the same way that Jimmy Chitwood would be selling insurance today instead of playing high level basketball.

And of course some of this is said tongue in cheek.

[MUBoxer]

So then you're saying if SJU finishes terribly, continues to lose to mid majors and completely pulls down the RPI of the Big East that because they beat Cuse (even if Cuse doesn't make the tournament) they've done more to help the the Conference than a team that was actually pretty darn close to being an NCAA team made the postseason and actually beat tournament teams? If that is what you're saying then I must send you back to my post regarding logic.

Yes

The 2007 DePaul team was whatever. They were not trash like their recent years, but they didn't mean anything. Just another NIT team finishing in the bottom half of the conference. The type of team that would get a coach like Steve Lappas fired.

The one win against Cuse this year by St. John's was absolutely bigger for the league than a 20 win NIT team.

If you don't understand why, that's fine. But that just tells me you don't understand the dynamic of the northeast college hoops scene.


It is similar to Marquette beating Wisconsin this year in Madison. Wisconsin is terrible this year, but that is still a bigger win than anything DePaul has contributed in its decade in the conference (or equal to their one big win against Kansas).

Now if DePaul's win had come against Kansas THIS year, I would be singing a different tune. But a 2007 win against Kansas the week after Kansas lost to Oral Roberts at a time when the Big East was doing what it was doing is not as significant as Marquette beating last year's national runner up at Madison or the Johnnies beating Cuse at the Garden this year.

The fact that you think a team could completely tank the RPI and still be worth more compared to a team that was considered a decent win shows just how illogical and short sighted you are. Surprisingly there exists more to the country that the north east and I'd say 90% of decent hoops is played outside of that little portion.

[NovaBall]

Not wanting to dip my toe in the water too much but let me say this about Syracuse and the Big East and the importance of being them at anytime. When the media talks about the "Old Big East" and how the "Big East died", they are talking about one school leaving the conference - Syracuse. If Syracuse was our 11th school right now, they would not be referring to the Big East as having somehow died. It wasn't Pitt, or West Virginia, or Louisville who put the final nail in the coffin, it was 'Cuse. They had the coach who was here in the beginning. They had the fan base that traveled up and down the eastern seaboard. How would the "New Big East" hold on to MSG without the Syracuse name at the Garden. And make no mistake, Syracuse fans were very torn about leaving. They recruited NYC, Philly and DC. They wanted to not only be in those cities but win in those cities. Especially in New York - if you win there fans will come out. If you don't, your seats will be empty and it doesn't matter if you are the Knicks, Yankees, Mets or St. John's. While beating Kansas is always a great thing, the Big East needs to beat the schools that walked. Syracuse has played six games against he Big East since leaving. In the first year they beat Nova at the Dome and the Johnnies at MSG. Since then they have lost four straight - to Nova in Philly and the Johnnies in the Dome last season and to the Hoyas at Verizon and the Johnnies at the Garden trhis year. Syracuse is not a bad team this season - so I don;t know where that is coming from as they have played some very good teams and won. But it is more important for the league to beat them than to beat Kansas. It just is. It drives a stake in their heart as well as the ACC which tried to destroy the Big East. The Johnnies are not good this year. They will be within the next two years - but they are not now. But the win against Syracuse is significant - significant for St. John''s and very significant for the league.

Exactly.

People who talk about the demise of the Big East are really talking about only two teams: Syracuse and UConn. And everyone knows UConn has lost their Hall of Fame coach and is stuck in a horrible conference, and while they will continue to perform well (thinking Cincy'ish out of old C-USA), they are no longer a real factor in the northeast. Cuse, however, is seen as the real loss. Cuse is the credibility for the ACC in our territory.

Teams like Pitt, ND, BC, Louisville, Miami, V-Tech, Cincy and USF are water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.

And I don't hate or dislike Cuse by any means. I really like Boeheim. But to underestimate the importance of the northeast schools who have always had the little brother perception when it comes to Cuse is foolish of MUBoxer.

And I don't care if it is a good Cuse team or bad Cuse team that we beat. It's almost better if it is a bad Cuse team as that would be us putting our foot on their throats and keeping it there.

[NovaBall]

The fact that you think a team could completely tank the RPI and still be worth more compared to a team that was considered a decent win shows just how illogical and short sighted you are. Surprisingly there exists more to the country that the north east and I'd say 90% of decent hoops is played outside of that little portion.

See, I don't consider 2007 DePaul to be "decent." I would compare them to the 2000-2004 Nova teams that got Steve Lappas fired and had Jay Wright criticized in his first few years (actually, Lappas' teams were top 50 RPI at least).

That 2007 DePaul team was not "decent." They were a 9-7 team with 20 wins that lost in the pop corn round of the Big East tourney (means first game of the first day, because you travel all the way to NYC and are going home before its late enough to even drink a beer). Those teams were a dime a dozen back then. 8 of the 16 teams made the dance, and DePaul wasn't one of them.

And you are correct that in touting the Johnnies win over Cuse I have set the bar pretty low. But if you think a NIT flameout team that wasn't even top 50 RPI in a year with half of the conference made the dance was somehow valuable to the league, I'm sorry but you are severely overrating the significance of that team.


Meanwhile, just read the johnnies fan post above for why I give a ton of credit to the Cuse win. That actually is a valuable win and means more than a run of the mill NIT team.