Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[booyah]

See I'd agree per MSG but as far as your market argument that'd only be effective if he didn't rank depaul tenth. It's the largest school in the conference (largest catholic school in the country) in the 3rd largest market in the country. I'm not sure about biggest hub of our alumni. Maybe that was true in years past but on top of Depaul actually being in chicago with their alumni around the city Marquette has a massive contingent here as well (60% of the school is from around chicago) I know Butler and Creighton also have massive amounts of alumni here to. NYC probably still has more overall but it's close enough that that same argument should've brought Depaul upward. Essentially they're sister schools and it doesn't make sense to use all those arguments for one being so high and while the other gets ignored.

I think that means we agree? In that I wouldn't have ranked Depaul at the bottom. I'm only defending the top 4 being Gtown/Nova/St.John's/MU. Maybe I'm biased and a Nova/ St. John's grad would argue the top three?

If i was doing a ranking I'd say 5-8 (Butler/Xavier/Provi/Seton Hall) are a bit of a mishmash between arguments about market/bball tradition/big east tradition/recent success.

Depaul is much less Chicago Bball then St. John's is NYC, both because of their recent success and the comparatively lower crescent of their past success. (Not that St. John's owns NYC, but at least they matter.) But does being a large school in Chicago make Depaul 5th? 9th? somewhere in between? No idea. I agree that the conference having a presence in NY and Chicago is huge.

I love having Creighton in the conference- Creighton's run with McDermott was important to the conference at its most vulnerable period, they have great alumni, great alumni support, and are a great fit. But I'd assume they have the least leverage over the other programs- 1. Because they are so geographically distant from most of the Big East 2. Come from a small metro area 3. Have very little of our alumni locally, 4. The Wichita St. phenomenon- are geographically bereft of options in conference alignment 5. are newcomers. So I put them 10th. They make it a habit to get to the Sweet 16 and they'll be right up there in the mix.

[falcon]

NJ Redmen isn't representative of either NY nor SJU. He's one of those people who is seldom right, and never in doubt.

Seldom right? Says the guy who keeps pushing for divisions. Seriously, who the F are you? Who is your team? How do you know what a SJU fan or a New Yorker is like?

I'm both a New Yorker and a SJU grad, and a fan for over forty years, and your crude, phony tough guy act is not typical of the St. John's people I know. As for the division question, I only mentioned it in passing. You, as usual, then overreacted. I'm fine with whatever the league chooses to do, if and when it expands.

[booyah]

Just another data point on Conference realignment.

When talking about expansions in relation to markets and alumni presence, its hard to find good data. Where are our young grads going? I couldnt find anything Big East specific but generally:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/20/upsho ... -live.html

Unfortunately this report talks only about percentage growths, not overall numbers. But the report its based on -

http://cityobservatory.org/ynr/

does. Caveats: this is 3 miles within downtown metro areas, not media markets. So its a proxy for total young alums, of which our schools has some (smaller) percentage. Of course, some cities don't have safe downtowns which can skew the numbers, and we are using national data instead of our school's data but...

If you order the number of young grads living in the cities (in 2010) the top and some cities of interest go:
City, total, % increase since 2000
NYC 228,000 15.1%
SF Area 91,000 7.8%
DC area 77,000 74.9%
Chicago 75,000 54.9%
Boston 70,000 36.4%
Philly 50,000 77%
Denver 30,000 51%
Charlotte 11,000 70%
Richmond 9,500 41%
St. Louis 7,300 138%
For us - Bay Area is out, short of the Big East going national. We can all see the impact of NYC. DC metro is gaining, Chicago is up there. Would like everyone to note where Boston shows up. I know I'm a homer for BU and Northeastern, but dang it would be nice if they were just adequate on the court.

No reason to expand now, but something to color our thinking for the future.

[NJRedman]

NJ Redmen isn't representative of either NY nor SJU. He's one of those people who is seldom right, and never in doubt.

Seldom right? Says the guy who keeps pushing for divisions. Seriously, who the F are you? Who is your team? How do you know what a SJU fan or a New Yorker is like?

I'm both a New Yorker and a SJU grad, and a fan for over forty years, and your crude, phony tough guy act is not typical of the St. John's people I know. As for the division question, I only mentioned it in passing. You, as usual, then overreacted. I'm fine with whatever the league chooses to do, if and when it expands.

Oh get the f out of here with this bullsh--! Who's being a tough guy here? Not me! Oh and I call bullsh-- on you both you being a Johnny alum and being from NYC. If you think I'm bad then you never met anyone from the Staten Island campus, but of course you never did because you're not from NYC and never went to St. John's.

You called me out asshole, if you don't like it then don't call me out. You didn't mention divisions in passing you mentioned it in at least three separate posts. I can't help that you're stupid. That's your problem.

[MUBoxer]

See I'd agree per MSG but as far as your market argument that'd only be effective if he didn't rank depaul tenth. It's the largest school in the conference (largest catholic school in the country) in the 3rd largest market in the country. I'm not sure about biggest hub of our alumni. Maybe that was true in years past but on top of Depaul actually being in chicago with their alumni around the city Marquette has a massive contingent here as well (60% of the school is from around chicago) I know Butler and Creighton also have massive amounts of alumni here to. NYC probably still has more overall but it's close enough that that same argument should've brought Depaul upward. Essentially they're sister schools and it doesn't make sense to use all those arguments for one being so high and while the other gets ignored.

I think that means we agree? In that I wouldn't have ranked Depaul at the bottom. I'm only defending the top 4 being Gtown/Nova/St.John's/MU. Maybe I'm biased and a Nova/ St. John's grad would argue the top three?

If i was doing a ranking I'd say 5-8 (Butler/Xavier/Provi/Seton Hall) are a bit of a mishmash between arguments about market/bball tradition/big east tradition/recent success.

Depaul is much less Chicago Bball then St. John's is NYC, both because of their recent success and the comparatively lower crescent of their past success. (Not that St. John's owns NYC, but at least they matter.) But does being a large school in Chicago make Depaul 5th? 9th? somewhere in between? No idea. I agree that the conference having a presence in NY and Chicago is huge.

I love having Creighton in the conference- Creighton's run with McDermott was important to the conference at its most vulnerable period, they have great alumni, great alumni support, and are a great fit. But I'd assume they have the least leverage over the other programs- 1. Because they are so geographically distant from most of the Big East 2. Come from a small metro area 3. Have very little of our alumni locally, 4. The Wichita St. phenomenon- are geographically bereft of options in conference alignment 5. are newcomers. So I put them 10th. They make it a habit to get to the Sweet 16 and they'll be right up there in the mix.

There you go, if you were going to agree with his ranking then you logically needed to move depaul up to. Since you believe in that I'm fine with MU being fourth because it show your value to media markets.

Obviously Depaul has hit the bottom harder than SJU but let's not pretend that SJU is head and shoulders above Depaul either. Depaul goes 22 Appearances, 10 S16, 3 E8, 2 FF. SJU goes 29 Appearances, 9 S16, 6 E8, 2 FF, 1 RU. Certainly SJU is above but neither team has a championship and during the pair of your golden eras in the 80s I'd say you were roughly on par.

In regaurds to being a large school I'm not sure, I'd say that the size makes it more statistically probable to gain more fans from both alumni, students, student families, and future students than a smaller school, even the other school is only 4,000 smaller. What I can say is when you both were in your prime in the 80s Depaul was always a top school for attendance while SJU never showed up so I'd either assume that means more fans from people affiliated with the school or that the casual Chicago fan was more likely to go.

In the end I'm only saying that I feel out east undervalues the Chicago market and overvalues how much SJU brings from NYC this day and age but if those two wake up and become great I'll be thrilled and this conference will definitely be visible, till then I maintain in this era of Blue Bloods, the three programs most important are those that have won the NCAA tournament and have 30+ NCAA appearances making them the closest to being a blue blood.

[booyah]

MUBoxer -

I think we're basically on the same page. I just weigh the fact that NYC's market > Chicago market, MSG, and St. John's being more relevant in the 90s and 2000s, heavier than you do. Its nice to be able to argue whether Depaul, with their pedigree, should be ranked 10th or not. I love the Big East.

On a personal/anecdotal note, my dad's side are Michiganders - half my cousins moved to Chicago, so I can relate to the Chicago hub argument.

[jaxalum]

Does anyone know what the process and protocols are in regards to selecting a team if expansion does occur?

I think the more important questions is, what does it take for a school to be voted in?

-Is it a majority vote? A percentage that has to be reached?
-Does it have to be unanimous?

-Can one school block a candidate school? If not, how many schools does it take?

If any, what candidate school(s) would your school possibly block?

[Xudash]

Page 97 of Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

UD has ZERO track record - actually, it has a negative record - when it comes to replacing coaches. Until Archie, they've been horrid at that very important function.

I disagree. Jim O'Brien inherited an NCAA Tournament-bound team in 1989, and four years later, led the Flyers to an abysmal 4-26 record with the players he recruited and trained – the all-time low for the Dayton Flyers’ basketball program. Jim O’Brien sunk the Flyers so deep that it would take another two decades for the program to recover. It has admittedly been an excruciatingly slow process.

The rebuilding process has been incremental, but sustained, with each new head coach being more successful than his predecessor:

Jim O'Brien (1989-1994) – 5 Seasons ==> Overall: 61–87 (.412), Conference: 27–56 (.422)

Oliver Purnell (1994-2003) – 9 Seasons ==> Overall: 155–116 (.572), Conference: 72–68 (.514)

Brian Gregory (2003-2011) – 8 Seasons ==> Overall: 172–94 (.647), Conference: 70–58 (.547)

Archie Miller (2011-present) – 4 Seasons ==> Overall: 90–47 (.657), Conference: 39–27 (.591)

Archie Miller (2013-2015) – last 2 Seasons ==> Overall: 53-19 (.740), Conference: 23-11 (.680) and 7 NCAA Tournament games 5-2 (.710)

Dayton has a very young team this season (no seniors, 4 juniors, a sophomore, and 5 freshmen), yet was picked to win the Atlantic 10 by Joel Welser (who could well be wrong in this instance). Once again, the Flyers will likely be sweating it out on Selection Sunday, but Archie Miller will put another good team on the court this season and next season. That you can count on.

Look, you seem like you are a reasonable guy. I get that you take great pride in UD. And you conduct yourself well on this board.

With that noted, please do consider that this is a Big East board. LONG posts defending UD here probably isn't the best of ideas.

Beyond that, your perspective, in this particular case and on this particular matter, kind of did you in. While attempting to correct me literally, you exposed the fact that UD had two very mediocre coaches in Purnell and Gregory, and that they spent 17 years there between them. You're on a Big East board making the point that a couple of UD coaches showed improvement, when that improvement is remarkably below any standard or measure that would be attractive to the Big East.

So what if there was not a specific negative trend technically in terms of W/L records? UD was mediocre for a long, long time. Even more critical to the conversation is the fact that UD hasn't demonstrated any ability to replace a coach effectively since Archie took the job. Archie will leave UD sooner than later; probably pretty soon at that. And UD will have to replace him with a new AD in place.

1. 64th ranked television market with an existing Big East member already adjacent to UD.

2. Not exactly a stellar resume before Archie showed up, a thin resume while Archie has been on board, and who knows where it's headed once he leaves.

3. UD was never considered for initial Big East expansion for obvious reasons.

4. The Big East presently isn't concerned about expansion, and may not be for a number of years.

Beyond all that, we wait and see. Actually, we don't wait at all; we enjoy what we have with the 10 teams, the round robin format, hopefully strong performance, and continued success with our media partner and with MSG.

[gtmoBlue]

My (butlerguy03) list was just a reaction to the "who makes the decisions" posting that was going on. It wasn't scientific, and by no means any numbers went into the thought. It was simply, as another poster pointed out, my feeling of who was "in charge" of any expansion and a ranking of who we HAVE to keep. - end -

I see. IMO the decision making, power schools - in Order:
G'twn, Marquette, and Villanova.

Note: My response (using numbers, records, etc.) was due to presuming butlerguy03 had an equation or formula. He states there was none. End of story.

However, did life begin in 2005 for the Warriors/GEs? No. All the schools in this conference had the majority of their "body of work" accomplished prior to joining the BE - whether as independents, ECAC, Eastern 8, Great Midwest, CUSA, or other conference. Do any of you arbitrarily subtract 1000 wins off your schools record due to not being Big East wins? I doubt it. Records and wins are what they are - facts - regardless of where they were earned.

We would not be a Big East member today, were it not for those records and wins you are thumbing your nose at now. Creighton's hoops history and tradition "is what it is" and we have no need to apologize. We are more than "good enough" as evidenced by our inclusion into the Big East Conference.

I love the Warriors/GEs, ever since they told the NCAA to pound sand back in 1970 (Al & Hank). They have historically been the Jays big brother for 40-50 years. Al and Hank continued to schedule Creighton for years after joining various conferences. Milwaukee (Marquette) is the hub/HQ of the great plains Jesuits. The series has over 80 games played - we will gladly add on the 50+ W's that Marquette had won, since we are not "worthy" as a former independent and little MVC school.

[MUBoxer]

My (butlerguy03) list was just a reaction to the "who makes the decisions" posting that was going on. It wasn't scientific, and by no means any numbers went into the thought. It was simply, as another poster pointed out, my feeling of who was "in charge" of any expansion and a ranking of who we HAVE to keep. - end -

I see. IMO the decision making, power schools - in Order:
G'twn, Marquette, and Villanova.

Note: My response (using numbers, records, etc.) was due to presuming butlerguy03 had an equation or formula. He states there was none. End of story.

However, did life begin in 2005 for the Warriors/GEs? No. All the schools in this conference had the majority of their "body of work" accomplished prior to joining the BE - whether as independents, ECAC, Eastern 8, Great Midwest, CUSA, or other conference. Do any of you arbitrarily subtract 1000 wins off your schools record due to not being Big East wins? I doubt it. Records and wins are what they are - facts - regardless of where they were earned.

We would not be a Big East member today, were it not for those records and wins you are thumbing your nose at now. Creighton's hoops history and tradition "is what it is" and we have no need to apologize. We are more than "good enough" as evidenced by our inclusion into the Big East Conference.

I love the Warriors/GEs, ever since they told the NCAA to pound sand back in 1974 (Al & Hank). They have historically been the Jays big brother for 40-50 years. Al and Hank continued to schedule Creighton for years after joining various conferences. Milwaukee (Marquette) is the hub/HQ of the great plains Jesuits. The series has over 80 games played - we will gladly add on the 50+ W's that Marquette had won, since we are not "worthy" as a former independent and little MVC school.

I get that 100%. However when you're touting success from those days you need to account for the fact that you were in a 2-3 team deep conference. Example, I'd take Depaul 2007 as an NCAA team if they were in a mid major conference. So when you tout all those conference championships and claim better records than a bunch of other teams over the past 20yrs, you have to realize the vast difference in who you were playing vs who they were. Postseason tournaments are really the only equal calculator of success over time.