Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[R Jay]

In my short time as a Big East fan (Butler), here are the ranking of what schools have pull or power - in my opinion:

I based this off of market size, academic prestige, athletic success - particularly basketball - recent (last 20 years) tradition, and layman/outsider fan knowledge or view of the program.

1. Georgetown
2. Villanova
3. St. John's
4. Marquette
5. Xavier
6. Butler
7. Providence
8. Seton Hall
9. Creighton
10. DePaul

This wasn't to burn some fans, just me trying to be honest. You'll see that Butler, even with recent 15 year success, is still 6th.

The only ones I had trouble with is 5/6 and 8/9.

I don't see how Providence and Seton Hall are above Creighton... Weighting market size heavily is the only plausible explanation.
St. John's is waaaaaaay too high. I'd have them in the 6-8 range.

[stever20]

In my short time as a Big East fan (Butler), here are the ranking of what schools have pull or power - in my opinion:

I based this off of market size, academic prestige, athletic success - particularly basketball - recent (last 20 years) tradition, and layman/outsider fan knowledge or view of the program.

1. Georgetown
2. Villanova
3. St. John's
4. Marquette
5. Xavier
6. Butler
7. Providence
8. Seton Hall
9. Creighton
10. DePaul

This wasn't to burn some fans, just me trying to be honest. You'll see that Butler, even with recent 15 year success, is still 6th.

The only ones I had trouble with is 5/6 and 8/9.

I don't see how Providence and Seton Hall are above Creighton... Weighting market size heavily is the only plausible explanation.
St. John's is waaaaaaay too high. I'd have them in the 6-8 range.

only one that you could possibly put St John's behind is Marquette. No way they're behind in power/pull the 3 newest schools or PC/Seton Hall. Absolutely no way at all.

[Vill]

100+ pages of discussion to determine we are perfect with the current 10 teams. At least that's how I read it.

[booyah]

Must really value market size to put St. John's over Marquette. Because every other category MU's got them beat.

The ranking of the first four seems right to me. Think of it as - if you were another conference that could/had to poach from the Big East, (say A10 or ACC) how would you rank the programs?

To address St. John's in particular, beyond having a great history in the Big East which helps tie the brand to the conference (the transition from the BE to nBE), they uniquely maintain our claim to MSG, the largest media market and the biggest hub of our alumni. St. John's may never 'own' the NYC market but the upside for the conference if St. John's gets seriously competitive is pretty darn high.

Losing Marquette would be a big blow to the Big East, no question. Losing St. John's would be a disaster.

[NJRedman]

NJ Redmen isn't representative of either NY nor SJU. He's one of those people who is seldom right, and never in doubt.

Seldom right? Says the guy who keeps pushing for divisions. Seriously, who the F are you? Who is your team? How do you know what a SJU fan or a New Yorker is like?

[MUBoxer]

Must really value market size to put St. John's over Marquette. Because every other category MU's got them beat.

The ranking of the first four seems right to me. Think of it as - if you were another conference that could/had to poach from the Big East, (say A10 or ACC) how would you rank the programs?

To address St. John's in particular, beyond having a great history in the Big East which helps tie the brand to the conference (the transition from the BE to nBE), they uniquely maintain our claim to MSG, the largest media market and the biggest hub of our alumni. St. John's may never 'own' the NYC market but the upside for the conference if St. John's gets seriously competitive is pretty darn high.

Losing Marquette would be a big blow to the Big East, no question. Losing St. John's would be a disaster.

See I'd agree per MSG but as far as your market argument that'd only be effective if he didn't rank depaul tenth. It's the largest school in the conference (largest catholic school in the country) in the 3rd largest market in the country. I'm not sure about biggest hub of our alumni. Maybe that was true in years past but on top of Depaul actually being in chicago with their alumni around the city Marquette has a massive contingent here as well (60% of the school is from around chicago) I know Butler and Creighton also have massive amounts of alumni here to. NYC probably still has more overall but it's close enough that that same argument should've brought Depaul upward. Essentially they're sister schools and it doesn't make sense to use all those arguments for one being so high and while the other gets ignored.

[BigmanU]

In my short time as a Big East fan (Butler), here are the ranking of what schools have pull or power - in my opinion:

I based this off of market size, academic prestige, athletic success - particularly basketball - recent (last 20 years) tradition, and layman/outsider fan knowledge or view of the program.

1. Georgetown
2. Villanova
3. St. John's
4. Marquette
5. Xavier
6. Butler
7. Providence
8. Seton Hall
9. Creighton
10. DePaul

This wasn't to burn some fans, just me trying to be honest. You'll see that Butler, even with recent 15 year success, is still 6th.

The only ones I had trouble with is 5/6 and 8/9.

1-4 are spot on!

Agree, trouble with 5 & 6

7-10 are all about the same. I will say however that DePaul has the biggest upside and could move all the way to 5 if it ever got it's shit together. Like St. John's, a sleeping giant.

Losing any one of the top three would be devastating to the conference because they are the remaining heavyweights in which the foundation of the conference was built. There's really no debate in this.
When doing a list like this, the main thing to consider is which team would an outside conference want to poach first or what would be the biggest hole to fill (make the biggest blackeye to the conference).

[gtmoBlue]

Butlerguy03... Might be time to show the formula u used to build your model. The points regarding Marquette and DePaul (by other posters) are valid regarding mkt size, alum base, etc.

If mkt size is the predominant factor, DePaul cannot be 10th.
Also while in a lesser mkt, Creighton is the top academic regional school in the Midwest (x 13 years running) and has a better record than Prov and SH over the last 20 year period:
15 - 20+ Win seasons (last 20 yrs)
4 - Conf Championships, 8 - Conf tourney championships
10 - NCAA bids, 5 - NIT postseason bids
17 - post season tourneys

Something is amiss with your formula?

[MUBoxer]

Butlerguy03... Might be time to show the formula u used to build your model. The points regarding Marquette and DePaul are valid regarding mkt size, alum base, etc.

If mkt size is the predominant factor, DePaul cannot be 10th.
Also while in a lesser mkt, Creighton is the top academic regional school in the Midwest (x 13 years running) and has a better record than Prov and SH over the last 20 year period:
15 - 20+ Win seasons (last 20 yrs)
4 - Conf Championships, 8 - Conf tourney championships
10 - NCAA bids, 5 - NIT postseason bids
17 - post season tourneys

Something is amiss with your formula?

Little tip: bragging about those conference championships and 20+ win seasons, when 18 of those were in the Missouri valley, isn't exactly impressive. But to the rest of your points this is why I'm confused. I feel like for some teams he used one factor and used other factors for other teams.

In my short time as a Big East fan (Butler), here are the ranking of what schools have pull or power - in my opinion:

I based this off of market size, academic prestige, athletic success - particularly basketball - recent (last 20 years) tradition, and layman/outsider fan knowledge or view of the program.

1. Georgetown
2. Villanova
3. St. John's
4. Marquette
5. Xavier
6. Butler
7. Providence
8. Seton Hall
9. Creighton
10. DePaul

This wasn't to burn some fans, just me trying to be honest. You'll see that Butler, even with recent 15 year success, is still 6th.

The only ones I had trouble with is 5/6 and 8/9.

1-4 are spot on!

Agree, trouble with 5 & 6

7-10 are all about the same. I will say however that DePaul has the biggest upside and could move all the way to 5 if it ever got it's shit together. Like St. John's, a sleeping giant.

Losing any one of the top three would be devastating to the conference because they are the remaining heavyweights in which the foundation of the conference was built. There's really no debate in this.
When doing a list like this, the main thing to consider is which team would an outside conference want to poach first or what would be the biggest hole to fill (make the biggest blackeye to the conference).

Umm 3 appearances since 2000 is heavyweight? I'm not trying to make waves here but lets call a spade a spade I mean that's one more appearance than Depaul in that same time frame. I'd argue the conference has been successful despite the "sleeping giants" not reliant on the two of them.

[butlerguy03]

My list was just a reaction to the "who makes the decisions" posting that was going on. It wasn't scientific, and by no means any numbers went into the thought. It was simply, as another poster pointed out, my feeling of who was "in charge" of any expansion and a ranking of who we HAVE to keep. Sorry, but the last 20 years has killed any tradition DePaul had. St. John's has the distinction of being the most major basketball program in the largest market in the world.

I don't mean to slight Creighton, but someone had to be #'s 7-9.

As a Butler fan, I'd say Xavier and Butler helped the Big East save itself. As a basketball fan, I know Butler and Xavier needed the Big East too.