Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[BigmanU]

I know Wichita State is probably 5th or so on our list, but this is definitely hard to ignore. They are spending a crap load of money on their program.

http://shockerhoops.net/index.php/2015/10/05/gregg-marshalls-contract-details-released/

I would be shocked if Wichita state is even on the list. Its a message board thing. They don't fit culturally or academically and if their going the public route, I would assume a slam dunk like UConn (sorry VCU). Their as good as their current coach and have made it past the Elite 8 1 time in the last 30+ years. Great pedigree.

Hell, I say all this as I type this post on a message board.

[Jet915]

I know Wichita State is probably 5th or so on our list, but this is definitely hard to ignore. They are spending a crap load of money on their program.

http://shockerhoops.net/index.php/2015/10/05/gregg-marshalls-contract-details-released/

There is no way Creighton would support Wichita.

[booyah]

Is this convo 5-8 years too early? Yeah, unless something crazy happens.


Crazy 2 -
The second crazy twist i could see is if the NCAA rules were changed to allow associate bball members, in the same way associate football members were allowed. In such a case, Gonzaga would be getting a Big East invite the next day. I'd assume the AAC would take VCU and Wichita St. almost immediately, for the RPI and NCAA tourney credits if nothing else.

Good comments. Interesting.

I know you're entertaining even the wildest possibilities here, but just want to make the point that Crazy 2 will never happen. The football situation only exists because a school can have all it's sports in one league and might have a sport that the league doesn't sponsor. The school is then allowed to find another league for that sport. It's not just football. In some cases it's LAX, in others it's hockey, etc. so, it could happen today if there were a league that didn't sponsor basketball. But of course everyone plays basketball. Bottom line is that there is no special exemption for football.

An academic point because I dont see Gonzaga doing this but - but I wondered how about if Gonzaga dropped to D2 or D3 in all sports other than bball? kind of a Johns Hopkins of bball. The D2 league they were in would defacto not have D1 bball. Unfortunately Wikipedia says -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Divi ... pionship-9

"in addition to the schools that compete fully as D-I institutions, the NCAA allows D-II and D-III schools to classify one men's and one women's sport (other than football or basketball) as a D-I sport, as long as they had been sponsoring those sports prior to the latest rules change in 2011.[8] Also, Division II schools are eligible to compete for Division I national championships in sports that do not have a Division II national championship, and in those sports may also operate under D-I rules and scholarship limits"

[milksteak]

Their as good as their current coach and have made it past the Elite 8 1 time in the last 30+ years. Great pedigree.

That is not a reasonable argument.

Final Four appearances by team:
Georgetown - 5 -- most recently in 2007
Marquette - 3 -- most recently in 2003
Villanova - 3 -- most recently in 2009
Butler - 2 -- most recently in 2011
DePaul - 2 -- most recently in 1979
Providence - 2 -- most recently in 1987
SJU - 2 -- most recently in 1985
Seton Hall - 1 -- most recently in 1989
Creighton - 0
Xavier - 0

We have three teams in this league with the same "pedigree" or worse. Mind you two of them are recent additions.

There are reasons for not adding them, but I don't think pedigree is one of them. I don't think the Wichita market is worth anything, and I don't think their academics match the rest of the league's teams.

[Xudash]

Oh UDpride... That's one troll I almost wish would come to this board. He was so delusional about his conference and program it was hilarious

I'm really glad UD is in the rearview mirror. They're now on their third year in a row where dismissals/suspensions have had to be invoked. Of course, last year even they took it to a new level when they finally stopped two felons from romping freely by finally kicking them off the team and with those two landing convictions. They have not proven that they're capable of replacing lost coaches; they're on a "run" of one coach when it comes to Archie. Archie simply isn't going to stay there much longer, probably especially now that the third year of player theatrics has played out.

But with the topic being UDPride, I can't imagine what the conversation looks like over there between that braintrust when the topic of the Big East comes up. If I had to guess, it most likely goes something like:

1. "We don't need the Big East."

2. "Fox is going to fail and then what are they going to do for money."

3. "Dayton is so much better than most BE programs already."

3. "Pure conspiracy; Dayton was blocked by the Jesuits, otherwise we would have been the C7's first pick" (I actually believe some of those idiots think this).

Overall, some form of denial combined with hatred, combined with jealousy, combined with a false sense of superiority, the latter of which they are gifted at.

Oh, in getting back to some constructive dialogue about all this: stay at 10, because we're strong and trending well on all fronts. We are absolutely under no stress of any kind to expand. Stay at 10 and let it continue to play out on the football side.

[MUBoxer]

Oh UDpride... That's one troll I almost wish would come to this board. He was so delusional about his conference and program it was hilarious

I'm really glad UD is in the rearview mirror. They're now on their third year in a row where dismissals/suspensions have had to be invoked. Of course, last year even they took it to a new level when they finally stopped two felons from romping freely by finally kicking them off the team and with those two landing convictions. They have not proven that they're capable of replacing lost coaches; they're on a "run" of one coach when it comes to Archie. Archie simply isn't going to stay there much longer, probably especially now that the third year of player theatrics has played out.

But with the topic being UDPride, I can't imagine what the conversation looks like over there between that braintrust when the topic of the Big East comes up. If I had to guess, it most likely goes something like:

1. "We don't need the Big East."

2. "Fox is going to fail and then what are they going to do for money."

3. "Dayton is so much better than most BE programs already."

3. "Pure conspiracy; Dayton was blocked by the Jesuits, otherwise we would have been the C7's first pick" (I actually believe some of those idiots think this).

Overall, some form of denial combined with hatred, combined with jealousy, combined with a false sense of superiority, the latter of which they are gifted at.

Oh, in getting back to some constructive dialogue about all this: stay at 10, because we're strong and trending well on all fronts. We are absolutely under no stress of any kind to expand. Stay at 10 and let it continue to play out on the football side.

Archie won't stay there for long, it's not a program that can be built into a power and eventually he's going to get sick of living in his big brother's shadow over at Arizona.

I vividly remember his "Jesuit mafia" conspiracy. Which of course was a joke because Marquette and Georgetown were the only ones who were Jesuit at the time. (though a Jesuit only league would be surprisingly good and we know the pope would love it!)

Also remember on the old ESPN comments section getting into an argument with someone named UDpride who tried to argue they were better than MU, and mind you this was before MU's past two years and their Elite 8. They must put something in the water over there.

[BigmanU]

Their as good as their current coach and have made it past the Elite 8 1 time in the last 30+ years. Great pedigree.

That is not a reasonable argument.

Final Four appearances by team:
Georgetown - 5 -- most recently in 2007
Marquette - 3 -- most recently in 2003
Villanova - 3 -- most recently in 2009
Butler - 2 -- most recently in 2011
DePaul - 2 -- most recently in 1979
Providence - 2 -- most recently in 1987
SJU - 2 -- most recently in 1985
Seton Hall - 1 -- most recently in 1989
Creighton - 0
Xavier - 0

We have three teams in this league with the same "pedigree" or worse. Mind you two of them are recent additions.

There are reasons for not adding them, but I don't think pedigree is one of them. I don't think the Wichita market is worth anything, and I don't think their academics match the rest of the league's teams.

The only true counterpart is Creighton. They are in a Mid Major conference in which Creighton use to dominate. Creighton's Conference Tournament Championships 1989, 1991, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2012, 2013 (10) & Regular Season Championships 1989, 1991, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2013 (6) in the past 30 years. Comparison Wichita State's Conference Tournament Championships 1985 & 1987 (2) (2014 Creighton not in league) & Regular Season Championships 2006, 2012 (2) (2014 & 2015 Creighton not in league). Wichita State does not have the pedigree.

The problem people are trying to compare to the BEast bottom teams. The point is to add value by getting a team at least in the top half when added. Most teams don't add value, they dilute. Not saying UConn or Gonzaga specifically (They have their own setbacks FB & distance) but, top flight teams down the road if something stands out. Most teams discussed don't have the pedigree.

[NJRedman]

We have 10 years left on this TV contract. This thread is jumping the gun by about 5-8 years.

A lot can change in 5-8 years. Just loot at the landscape of college sports in 2007.

The Big East was a 16 team behemoth, the Big XII had 12 teams, the Big Ten had 11, Utah and TCU were in the MWC along with BYU and the WAC still sponsored FBS FB.

If the Big XII gets picked apart and the four power conferences are at 16 we would feel the pressure to add a few ourselves. I don't think we'd go to 16 but I can see us definitely going to 12 just to keep up with the power leagues. Hell I could even see us jumping to 14 with all four of the teams I listed. A bridge to Creighton with Saint Louis, an expansion into the Mid-atlantic with Richmond and Davidson and a great fan base and instant rivalry with Dayton.

With the A-10 sitting at 10 after this I could see invites being extended to a few of these schools. Siena, Vermont, Iona, Manhattan, Stoney Brook, BU, Bucknell, Albany and maybe down into the UNC-Willminton or Ashville. I wanted to put Robert Morris on the list but I think the Dukes in Pittsburgh would say no to them. Though I think they would take maybe one of the schools around NYC.

Mostly agree, but I would rather have VCU or Richmond than Davidson. They are the definition of a one-coach-program (5 NCAA appearances prior to McKillop), tiny enrollment, tiny arena, 4th team in the state at best, way outside our footprint. They do have a nice new practice facility and some recent history, but that's about it.

Davidson isn't way outside our footprint, especially if Richmond is added as well. Creighton is out in Omaha, pretty far from it's closest fellow BE member. Daqvidson is 150+ miles closer to GTown than Creighton is to Marquette.

We might have to go to 14 and if Davidson stays at the top of the A-10 then they definitely deserve to be in the mix.

They might be fifth in popularity now but they haven't been in a top league yet. If they have some success in the BE they can easily surpass Wake in the state. Also the mid-atlantic is the only logical choice of expansion if we want to actually grow instead of just adding within our already established footprint. There are no good choices in Boston, Baltimore or Pittsburgh. We gotta head farther south for good east coast options.

[milksteak]

We should definitely keep an eye on Davidson. Half an hour outside of Charlotte. Interesting when you compare Charlotte's market to other Big East cities' markets.

1. New York
3. Chicago
4. Philadelphia
7. Washington D.C.
22. Charlotte
27. Indianapolis
35. Milwaukee
36. Cincinnati
52. Providence

http://www.tvb.org/media/file/2015-2016-dma-ranks.pdf

UNC, Duke, NCState and Wake Forest and Charlotte all probably have a much, much larger share of that market than Davidson though.

[NJRedman]

We should definitely keep an eye on Davidson. Half an hour outside of Charlotte. Interesting when you compare Charlotte's market to other Big East cities' markets.

1. New York
3. Chicago
4. Philadelphia
7. Washington D.C.
22. Charlotte
27. Indianapolis
35. Milwaukee
36. Cincinnati
52. Providence

http://www.tvb.org/media/file/2015-2016-dma-ranks.pdf

UNC, Duke, NCState and Wake Forest and Charlotte all probably have a much, much larger share of that market than Davidson though.

But being in that market makes us more valuable because that means their cable providers will have to put FS1 in the basic sports package and that makes Fox more money and in turn us more money during the next contract negotiations.

Butler isn't the #1 team in Indianapolis but they get us in that market. Same with any of us with a large and popular state school. I bet there are more Ohio State fans in Cincy than X fans, or more maryland fans in DC than GTown or PSU fans in Philly than Nova fans. It doesn't matter when the TV negotiations start, it gets us into another top 25 TV market.