muskienick wrote:Before I begin this post in earnest, let me just say that I love the Big East in its present 10-member configuration.
The Big East was originally born in 1979 because of basketball and was extremely successful over the the first 10-12 years with the concentration always on big-time basketball.
During those early years, there was a mix of private (Providence, St. Johns, Georgetown Seton Hall, BC, and Villanova) and public (Syracuse, UConn, and Pitt) members and there was no Big East Conference football.
The roots of the problems of that first existence of the Big East began with the League's decision in 1991 to go to Conference Football with the addition of Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Temple to join Syracuse, UConn, and Pitt as an 8-member League. At that point the rift between the BB-only and FB schools began to show faint hints of their existence and grew slowly over the next decade..
Greater problems materialized when the ACC raided the Big east by taking Virginia Tech, Miami, and BC with the Big East replacing them with Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida to fill out the FB Conference and Marquette and DePaul joining as non-FB members.
Through the coming decade, there were further departures, invitations made to a myriad of other schools to join and by 2013 the Original Big East met its demise with a big money payout to the FB survivors and the retention of the name and MSG as the Tourney site for at least a decade by what became dubbed, the Catholic 7 (BB survivors).
Good summary of early years. The original Big East had only one state school - UConn. Syracuse is private and Pitt came in after a few years as a concession to keep the football schools - BC and Syracuse. Looking back, conference should have let them go and added two basketball schools.
Please note that the extremely successful early version of the Conference included both public and private institutions and kept its focus on BASKETBALL. I believe that we should follow that model and continue to focus on BASKETBALL while avoiding the mistakes of the original Big East by eschewing the possibility of trying Big Football, ostensibly by limiting our membership to non-BCS/D-1-level Football schools. If we do that in the event of an expansion some time in the future, we should not limit ourselves to Private schools. By doing so, we risk the possibility of losing out on another UConn (which, at the time of their early membership, didn't play FB at the highest level and had not established itself among the elite in basketball either). On the other hand, if we can find private schools that have a prolonged recent great history of success in basketball, then they should likely be our first choices.
But great basketball programs should be our main focus for this league to be attractive to the TV viewers like Big East Monday Night Basketball was to millions of fans back in the late '70's and '80's.
We should also be mindful, in the event of an expansion, of geographical balance. If we combine Basketball Program Quality with Location (TV Market metro population, and geographical balance), along with Academic quality, of the four schools most often mentioned (University of Dayton, Saint Louis University, Virginia Commonwealth University, and Wichita State University) it would seem our Conference would be best served by adding VCU (Public; $1.5 B endowment; numerous Doctoral programs in Arts, Science, and the Humanities), Metro population of 1,200,000+ and a total student body of ~31,000) and SLU (Private; $1.02 B endowment ; 32 doctoral programs; 2.8 million population; 13,500+ total student body.)
The other two match up well in basketball excellence over the recent past (with WSU ~ VCU and UD ~ SLU). But the other metrics are mostly in favor of VCU and SLU (endowment, doctoral programs, Metro populations, and total student enrollment).
In short: let's stay at 10 if at all possible; but if we must expand, let's get the best quality schools using truly important criteria as their bases of selection.
muskienick wrote:Before I begin this post in earnest, let me just say that I love the Big East in its present 10-member configuration.
The Big East was originally born in 1979 because of basketball and was extremely successful over the the first 10-12 years with the concentration always on big-time basketball.
During those early years, there was a mix of private (Providence, St. Johns, Georgetown Seton Hall, BC, and Villanova) and public (Syracuse, UConn, and Pitt) members and there was no Big East Conference football.
The roots of the problems of that first existence of the Big East began with the League's decision in 1991 to go to Conference Football with the addition of Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Temple to join Syracuse, UConn, and Pitt as an 8-member League. At that point the rift between the BB-only and FB schools began to show faint hints of their existence and grew slowly over the next decade..
Greater problems materialized when the ACC raided the Big east by taking Virginia Tech, Miami, and BC with the Big East replacing them with Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida to fill out the FB Conference and Marquette and DePaul joining as non-FB members.
Through the coming decade, there were further departures, invitations made to a myriad of other schools to join and by 2013 the Original Big East met its demise with a big money payout to the FB survivors and the retention of the name and MSG as the Tourney site for at least a decade by what became dubbed, the Catholic 7 (BB survivors).
Please note that the extremely successful early version of the Conference included both public and private institutions and kept its focus on BASKETBALL. I believe that we should follow that model and continue to focus on BASKETBALL while avoiding the mistakes of the original Big East by eschewing the possibility of trying Big Football, ostensibly by limiting our membership to non-BCS/D-1-level Football schools. If we do that in the event of an expansion some time in the future, we should not limit ourselves to Private schools. By doing so, we risk the possibility of losing out on another UConn (which, at the time of their early membership, didn't play FB at the highest level and had not established itself among the elite in basketball either). On the other hand, if we can find private schools that have a prolonged recent great history of success in basketball, then they should likely be our first choices.
But great basketball programs should be our main focus for this league to be attractive to the TV viewers like Big East Monday Night Basketball was to millions of fans back in the late '70's and '80's.
We should also be mindful, in the event of an expansion, of geographical balance. If we combine Basketball Program Quality with Location (TV Market metro population, and geographical balance), along with Academic quality, of the four schools most often mentioned (University of Dayton, Saint Louis University, Virginia Commonwealth University, and Wichita State University) it would seem our Conference would be best served by adding VCU (Public; $1.5 B endowment; numerous Doctoral programs in Arts, Science, and the Humanities), Metro population of 1,200,000+ and a total student body of ~31,000) and SLU (Private; $1.02 B endowment ; 32 doctoral programs; 2.8 million population; 13,500+ total student body.)
The other two match up well in basketball excellence over the recent past (with WSU ~ VCU and UD ~ SLU). But the other metrics are mostly in favor of VCU and SLU (endowment, doctoral programs, Metro populations, and total student enrollment).
In short: let's stay at 10 if at all possible; but if we must expand, let's get the best quality schools using truly important criteria as their bases of selection.
BigmanU wrote:muskienick wrote:Before I begin this post in earnest, let me just say that I love the Big East in its present 10-member configuration.
The Big East was originally born in 1979 because of basketball and was extremely successful over the the first 10-12 years with the concentration always on big-time basketball.
During those early years, there was a mix of private (Providence, St. Johns, Georgetown Seton Hall, BC, and Villanova) and public (Syracuse, UConn, and Pitt) members and there was no Big East Conference football.
The roots of the problems of that first existence of the Big East began with the League's decision in 1991 to go to Conference Football with the addition of Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Temple to join Syracuse, UConn, and Pitt as an 8-member League. At that point the rift between the BB-only and FB schools began to show faint hints of their existence and grew slowly over the next decade..
Greater problems materialized when the ACC raided the Big east by taking Virginia Tech, Miami, and BC with the Big East replacing them with Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida to fill out the FB Conference and Marquette and DePaul joining as non-FB members.
Through the coming decade, there were further departures, invitations made to a myriad of other schools to join and by 2013 the Original Big East met its demise with a big money payout to the FB survivors and the retention of the name and MSG as the Tourney site for at least a decade by what became dubbed, the Catholic 7 (BB survivors).
Please note that the extremely successful early version of the Conference included both public and private institutions and kept its focus on BASKETBALL. I believe that we should follow that model and continue to focus on BASKETBALL while avoiding the mistakes of the original Big East by eschewing the possibility of trying Big Football, ostensibly by limiting our membership to non-BCS/D-1-level Football schools. If we do that in the event of an expansion some time in the future, we should not limit ourselves to Private schools. By doing so, we risk the possibility of losing out on another UConn (which, at the time of their early membership, didn't play FB at the highest level and had not established itself among the elite in basketball either). On the other hand, if we can find private schools that have a prolonged recent great history of success in basketball, then they should likely be our first choices.
But great basketball programs should be our main focus for this league to be attractive to the TV viewers like Big East Monday Night Basketball was to millions of fans back in the late '70's and '80's.
We should also be mindful, in the event of an expansion, of geographical balance. If we combine Basketball Program Quality with Location (TV Market metro population, and geographical balance), along with Academic quality, of the four schools most often mentioned (University of Dayton, Saint Louis University, Virginia Commonwealth University, and Wichita State University) it would seem our Conference would be best served by adding VCU (Public; $1.5 B endowment; numerous Doctoral programs in Arts, Science, and the Humanities), Metro population of 1,200,000+ and a total student body of ~31,000) and SLU (Private; $1.02 B endowment ; 32 doctoral programs; 2.8 million population; 13,500+ total student body.)
The other two match up well in basketball excellence over the recent past (with WSU ~ VCU and UD ~ SLU). But the other metrics are mostly in favor of VCU and SLU (endowment, doctoral programs, Metro populations, and total student enrollment).
In short: let's stay at 10 if at all possible; but if we must expand, let's get the best quality schools using truly important criteria as their bases of selection.
Well thought out post. One thing I noticed, Syracuse is actually a private University.
Not a response to you. Just my personal thoughts:
The conference is doing great at ten. Round robin and soon I believe we will consistently get 7 in the NCAA's. 6 will probably be the floor. Why dilute the product unless another school way down the line makes it a no brainer. We are nowhere near that point.
stever20 wrote:BigmanU wrote:muskienick wrote:Before I begin this post in earnest, let me just say that I love the Big East in its present 10-member configuration.
The Big East was originally born in 1979 because of basketball and was extremely successful over the the first 10-12 years with the concentration always on big-time basketball.
During those early years, there was a mix of private (Providence, St. Johns, Georgetown Seton Hall, BC, and Villanova) and public (Syracuse, UConn, and Pitt) members and there was no Big East Conference football.
The roots of the problems of that first existence of the Big East began with the League's decision in 1991 to go to Conference Football with the addition of Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Temple to join Syracuse, UConn, and Pitt as an 8-member League. At that point the rift between the BB-only and FB schools began to show faint hints of their existence and grew slowly over the next decade..
Greater problems materialized when the ACC raided the Big east by taking Virginia Tech, Miami, and BC with the Big East replacing them with Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida to fill out the FB Conference and Marquette and DePaul joining as non-FB members.
Through the coming decade, there were further departures, invitations made to a myriad of other schools to join and by 2013 the Original Big East met its demise with a big money payout to the FB survivors and the retention of the name and MSG as the Tourney site for at least a decade by what became dubbed, the Catholic 7 (BB survivors).
Please note that the extremely successful early version of the Conference included both public and private institutions and kept its focus on BASKETBALL. I believe that we should follow that model and continue to focus on BASKETBALL while avoiding the mistakes of the original Big East by eschewing the possibility of trying Big Football, ostensibly by limiting our membership to non-BCS/D-1-level Football schools. If we do that in the event of an expansion some time in the future, we should not limit ourselves to Private schools. By doing so, we risk the possibility of losing out on another UConn (which, at the time of their early membership, didn't play FB at the highest level and had not established itself among the elite in basketball either). On the other hand, if we can find private schools that have a prolonged recent great history of success in basketball, then they should likely be our first choices.
But great basketball programs should be our main focus for this league to be attractive to the TV viewers like Big East Monday Night Basketball was to millions of fans back in the late '70's and '80's.
We should also be mindful, in the event of an expansion, of geographical balance. If we combine Basketball Program Quality with Location (TV Market metro population, and geographical balance), along with Academic quality, of the four schools most often mentioned (University of Dayton, Saint Louis University, Virginia Commonwealth University, and Wichita State University) it would seem our Conference would be best served by adding VCU (Public; $1.5 B endowment; numerous Doctoral programs in Arts, Science, and the Humanities), Metro population of 1,200,000+ and a total student body of ~31,000) and SLU (Private; $1.02 B endowment ; 32 doctoral programs; 2.8 million population; 13,500+ total student body.)
The other two match up well in basketball excellence over the recent past (with WSU ~ VCU and UD ~ SLU). But the other metrics are mostly in favor of VCU and SLU (endowment, doctoral programs, Metro populations, and total student enrollment).
In short: let's stay at 10 if at all possible; but if we must expand, let's get the best quality schools using truly important criteria as their bases of selection.
Well thought out post. One thing I noticed, Syracuse is actually a private University.
Not a response to you. Just my personal thoughts:
The conference is doing great at ten. Round robin and soon I believe we will consistently get 7 in the NCAA's. 6 will probably be the floor. Why dilute the product unless another school way down the line makes it a no brainer. We are nowhere near that point.
Getting 7 in the NCAA's is extremely difficult with 10 teams. You pretty much have to get 8 wins in conference to have a shot- and generally speaking- that doesn't happen. A lot of 10 team leagues- look just like Big East last year where 7th place team is 6-12. I don't think you can ever say 6 will probably be the floor, because you can have years with the round robin like 2 years ago where you have 10-8 or 9-9 teams in those slots- and there, it's really team dependent. St John's was 10-8 and missed, and Marquette 9-9 missed. Xavier was 10-8 and was in PIG, and PC was in only because they won the conference tournament. Like this year- if Marquette is 9-9- no matter what place they are, they are going to be right on the bubble because their OOC schedule isn't all that great.
Also, quite frankly, I'd rather have 6 with the seeds we got last year, than 7 with 2 PIG/last bye teams in.
stever20 wrote:GoldenWarrior11 wrote:The problem with the Big 12 is that it is run by Texas, and the problem with Texas is that Texas will always do what is in the best interest for Texas. As long as Texas continues to get major revenue via the Longhorn Network, they don't care about adding more revenue to the Big 12, their members, or ensuring a spot for the league in the CFP. They really missed the boat in adding Louisville and Cincinnati when they added West Virginia in 2012. It would have given them a solid eastern wing, 12 members and a more stable conference moving forward.
If Cincinnati/Memphis/UCF/USF all manage to snag a life raft off the AAC (like to the Big 12), then I truly believe that UConn calls the Big East in desperation for non-football membership. A conference, in football or basketball, composed of East Carolina, Tulane, Tulsa, Houston, SMU (toxic at this point) and Temple would be a doomsday scenario. There's just no positive spin to it. The severance package that UConn/Cincinnati/USF all got will also run out soon. ESPN doesn't appear to need the inventory either, which doesn't bode well for their TV package.
Even if the AAC considers adding non-football schools (to balance the Navy membership), it is nothing different than the old Big East treading water for so many years to stay afloat as a conference. It doesn't stop the water from sinking the boat. Wichita State and VCU, when they have off-basketball seasons, would bring nothing to the conference (nothing in TV markets, nothing in school academic prestige).
The thing is, there's absolutely NO scenario where all 4 of those you mention would leave the AAC. It's very possible only Cincy does. That's the problem with all these AAC raid scenarios- they just aren't realistic. And without all of them leaving, UConn won't be needing to jump ship. Also there's the matter of new exit fees. Plus, the NCAA units- remember UConn has 25 units still to collect from their title 2 years ago.
About ESPN and their inventory- ESPN absolutely needs it. ACC is looking to get their own network, and Big Ten very possibly won't have as many games on. What is ESPN airing if not the AAC? Sun Belt? MAC?
VCU's market is up to #56 now. It's just behind Providence and Buffalo.
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