Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[sheg]

If all UD posters were of sheg's quality, I'd be rooting for the inclusion of the Flyers as one of our next two members (despite the few drawbacks I see in that idea).

Unfortunately, Muddy and some of his ilk, are chomping at the chance to ruin this Board also!

Thanks for the kind words from all of the Xavier fans. Fortunately, the presidents won't be taking the message boards into consideration in their next decision.

I get it. Dayton fans feel like they deserve a lot more for all the support they've given the program over the years. Other teams' fans feel that Dayton fans are a bunch of blowhards without a lot to back it up. Last year, when Dayton finally took a big step, it felt like a big relief, and a lot of UD fans expected the respect to come pouring in. They didn't realize just how long it takes to earn that respect once it's lost.

It's ironic. My argument in favor of UD's inclusion is based very little on what happened in March of 2014 and 2015. My point is that UD has had the basics of what would make a good conference mate all along - the infrastructure, the administration, the money, the support, the facilities, and the institutional fit. To me, 5 NCAA wins is not a REASON for inclusion. Instead, those wins are EVIDENCE that the criteria for inclusion have been met.

Now maybe the powers that be have different criteria, and if so, so be it. Maybe they see Davidson as a rising star (I would agree with the sentiment, their only drawback is microscopic enrollment) and pick SLU to go with them because of whatever reason. Or maybe UConn and Hawaii and the Sorbonne.

You know, once someone asked on the A10 board "who's your second favorite A10 team?" I made an argument that Dayton should be everybody's second favorite...they win 80% of non-con games every year, usually with a nice upset or two. They get in the bracket bracketology conversations every December, often ranked at some point in the season. Then they proceed to lay down in conference, going 8-8 or so, but often finishing with a top 50 RPI, helping their conference mates earn bids with the good wins. (Of course nobody agreed with me, as they all hate Dayton because of some dhead fans.)

Whatever, again, message boards are inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. I'd only suggest that candidates be judged on their merits, not their fans.

Dash, as far as Christi Hester goes, I agree that what happened to her was terrible. I will only defend it by noting that at the game last year, when she was inducted into the UD HOF, she received nothing but cheers (and was introduced as Christi Hester Mack btw). Her husband was very visible watching from the luxury box and was not heckled at all. A terrible episode to be sure, but I doubt it has any bearings on pretty much anything ever again, and certainly not something that will decide something like conference realignment. (The real culprit in the Chris Mack vs UD incident was Jim Crews anyway.)

For others that want "needle-movers" like UConn or gonzaga, I get it. But I try to take Frank the Tank's recommendation from his excellent blog: stop thinking like a fan, and start thinking like a university president. I have, and I've come up with a set of criteria that exclude UConn and Gonzaga. Now maybe I'm wrong; it's happened before.

For those of you, I would consider the words of Seth Davis. During last year's elite 8 run, the studio analysts were discussing Archie Miller. One asked if he should leave UD for a "top twenty job." Davis replied "he's already GOT a top twenty job." Now top twenty might be a stretch, but it's also not that far off in terms of PROGRAM (as opposed to RESULTS). As you all know, level of PROGRAM does not always equal level of RESULTS. But it is the best predictor of FUTURE results.

I'm not suggesting UD's a top twenty program, but they have top 35 attendance, top 25 money, a top 25 coach, and this year, a top 30 team. You've got that team in your reach. They're an excellent mission, institutional, and geographic fit. Or chase the UConn, Gonzaga, Duke, ND pipe dreams instead. One advantage to the Big East is that Dayton's not going anywhere soon, so you've got time.

I'll sign off for a while and listen to your response off the air. Talk amongst yourselves.

[gtmoBlue]

That's why I'd like to see Dayton/X in the Big East. If you don't have someone to root for in that one, you'll soon root for X once the Flyer faithful start posting reasons why they're a Final Four team in the pre-season. I'd like to see a public school or two (even if it's not VCU, so WSU or UCONN). I want Creighton fans to hate on the academics of the Shockers, and Hoya fans to bring out the "UCONNVicts". As an outsider, I don't have anyone to root for in the Big East, so I need someone to hate. Adding (or creating over the next couple years, from teams inside the conference) rivalries creates a reason for people unaffiliated to the conference to tune in.

.

I feel your pain - always nice to have a Southern Illinois to kick around, saved wear and tear on the old girl and the dog. SIU was a great rival - then they faded. Wichita Community College is a "Jonny come lately" and never really materialized as a true rival. This BE camaraderie is sort of a Boy Scout jamboree - earning merit badges, roasting marshmallows, and singing cumbaya.

If haters just gotta hate, then hate on Creighton. We're used to haters, love haters to death. Thing is with Creighton, your hate will grow exponentially as we get better and turn the MSG BET into the "Creighton Invitational". Gonna be fun.

[DudeAnon]

Gotta say, Ramfan and Sheg are bringing me around to adding Dayton & VCU.

[Michael in Raleigh]

I very much buy into the "Think Like a College President" advice when it comes to conference realignment. The trouble is that we can't know with any amount of certainty how they think. That's particularly true with the Big East under the new charter. The press can't use FOIA requests to obtain conference meetings' minutes, university emails, or other information as it could with other conferences. All we can do is go by what they say publicly, and use history to help us, well, guess.

We know a little bit about how the presidents of the five schools on the east coast thought for over 30 years (as well as DePaul and Marquette for 8 years). Their priorities for the former Big East included, not in particular order: (1) keeping the peace with the football schools so the league could stay together. This is why they tolerated football issues for so, so long; (2) money. This is also why they tolerated football issues for so, so long, even as the league swelled from the "classic" 9 schools of the 80's (Pitt included) to 16. The promise of money is why they didn't even leave after Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, or Notre Dame left. I'll venture to say that while money may no longer be a premier priority for the members of the previous Big East charter, their willingness to be a part of such an ever-changing league for as long as they were shows that financial resources matter A LOT to them; (3) good basketball. This was why the league was founded in 1979, and fighting to keep the league at or near the top of college hoops remained a priority throughout the previous charter's history. It's all the more true now under the new charter. (4) Madison Square Garden. This became crucial for the identity of the previous league charter, particularly for the non-football schools, and it remains a high priority under the current Big East charter.

I'll go out on a limb and say the number one priority under the new charter is STABILITY. The good news is that stability has been achieved. No one in this league is going anywhere, nor do they want to go anywhere. The TV money is pretty awesome. The commonality among the members is outstanding. There is a clear, common mission. This, not the ACC, not the Big Ten, is the members' league of choice.

From there, we don't know how the college presidents think. Adding UConn, if (and it's a ginormous if) it could somehow do something like a football-only membership in the MWC, would not threaten the league's stability. The Big East is strong without UConn. It would be stronger on the court and probably financiallly with UConn. It would still be strong and stable if UConn were to leave the Big East again after 4-5 years for the ACC or B1G. But do the college presidents of this league see even UConn as unacceptable? We don't know for sure.

[Butlerfan28]

I think Dayton vs Xavier would be huge for the big east

I'm not a Big East fan (I watched maybe 10-15 conference games this year). Before VCU was in the A10, I'd turned into Xavier/Cincinnati. I'd also turn into GT/Cuse, UCONN/Syracuse, SJU/Cuse, UCONN/GT, WVU/UCONN. What was great about most of those, was the packed crowds. Alumni didn't like each other, private v. State universities added to the heat. The current BE doesn't have that dynamic, all the schools are similar. Take everyone on here, everyone's polite to each other. It's great to be polite, and like your conference mates - but rivalries add so much to the sport and adds viewership. I have no connection to Duke/UNC but I'll watch because of the hatred, proximity and dynamic of different institutions.

I get that the Big East is only in its 2nd year, but 7 members came from the previous conference (or let's say the second iteration of the BE). I watch a decent amount of FS1 (comparatively) and there's no mention of rivalries. I'm on here and it doesn't seem like any program dislikes each other. Maybe I've missed something, but to steal Rothstein's vocab, there's no palpable buzz in conference matchups for an outsider. Is Georgetown/Nova a good game? Probably, but I'm not staying up to watch a 9 pm tip at a half filled Verizon Center.

I know this is an unpopular view, and everyone here probably has a similar background (private/religious university alumni or fan, who may associate with the same). Just as an outsider, it seems the games are a bit bland from a hype perspective. I want to see packed houses, hated rivals, good games - I don't care which conference.

That's why I'd like to see Dayton/X in the Big East. If you don't have someone to root for in that one, you'll soon root for X once the Flyer faithful start posting reasons why they're a Final Four team in the pre-season. I'd like to see a public school or two (even if it's not VCU, so WSU or UCONN). I want Creighton fans to hate on the academics of the Shockers, and Hoya fans to bring out the "UCONNVicts". As an outsider, I don't have anyone to root for in the Big East, so I need someone to hate. Adding (or creating over the next couple years, from teams inside the conference) rivalries creates a reason for people unaffiliated to the conference to tune in.

I agree completely and I am a Butler fan. I didn't go to Butler my kids did but if Butler isn't playing I find few compelling match-ups. My favorite match up would be Creighton Wichita State. Creighton is the epitome of silver spoon, academic elitism. Wichita is blue collar, hardscrabble. I watched it in the MVC a few times and it would be even better in the Big East. I think VCU Georgetown would have equally interesting contrasts. The current Big East has no contrast... No Michigan Ohio State. No USC (Private) UCLA (Public).

[Butlerfan28]

That's why I'd like to see Dayton/X in the Big East. If you don't have someone to root for in that one, you'll soon root for X once the Flyer faithful start posting reasons why they're a Final Four team in the pre-season. I'd like to see a public school or two (even if it's not VCU, so WSU or UCONN). I want Creighton fans to hate on the academics of the Shockers, and Hoya fans to bring out the "UCONNVicts". As an outsider, I don't have anyone to root for in the Big East, so I need someone to hate. Adding (or creating over the next couple years, from teams inside the conference) rivalries creates a reason for people unaffiliated to the conference to tune in.

.

I feel your pain - always nice to have a Southern Illinois to kick around, saved wear and tear on the old girl and the dog. SIU was a great rival - then they faded. Wichita Community College is a "Jonny come lately" and never really materialized as a true rival. This BE camaraderie is sort of a Boy Scout jamboree - earning merit badges, roasting marshmallows, and singing cumbaya.

If haters just gotta hate, then hate on Creighton. We're used to haters, love haters to death. Thing is with Creighton, your hate will grow exponentially as we get better and turn the MSG BET into the "Creighton Invitational". Gonna be fun.

Haha. "Wichita Community College" is exactly what I mean about Creighton. Their posters tend to epitomize snobbery and having Wichita in the conference to play them each year in my book would be awesome. And no I am not a Wichita Alum as I attended Pomona College but my daughter attends Butler.

[Xudash]

Most, if not all the Big East Presidents are very sharp people. I presume that is the case with most of the AD's. I believe Val Ackerman is very sharp, and that she has assembled a strong staff in the Conference's offices. We discuss all this a lot around here and some fret about it, worrying about how the leadership will navigate the future, but we should occasionally acknowledge that some bright people are in the decisionmaking position.

Whatever happens, I presume it will happen with a great deal of solid data brought to the table, fully discussed internally, and then fully discussed with our broadcast partner, as well as with MSG if that is warranted.

As I've shared, from the whatever it's worth department, expansion is not on the radar right now. They aren't focused on it and they aren't discussing it in any way, shape or form. And the relationships between the Big East, Fox and MSG are all on solid ground.

Any of that could change at some point.

Any of that may not change at all.

Where does that leave us and this discussion? Most likely watching five things, in particular, moving forward:

1. Fox's overall progress with FS1.

2. Big East television viewership numbers.

3. The level of ongoing success with the Big East Tournament.

4. Developments, if any, in the world of big-time college football; not just P5, but the survivability of certain non-P5 programs.

5. The date for when the "Conference realignment discussion - v. 2016" thread is started.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

sheg great follow-up post. And Christi was finally honored in UD Arena in proper fashion. I'm sure that meant a great deal to her.

[Michael in Raleigh]

Most, if not all the Big East Presidents are very sharp people. I presume that is the case with most of the AD's. I believe Val Ackerman is very sharp, and that she has assembled a strong staff in the Conference's offices. We discuss all this a lot around here and some fret about it, worrying about how the leadership will navigate the future, but we should occasionally acknowledge that some bright people are in the decisionmaking position.

Whatever happens, I presume it will happen with a great deal of solid data brought to the table, fully discussed internally, and then fully discussed with our broadcast partner, as well as with MSG if that is warranted.

As I've shared, from the whatever it's worth department, expansion is not on the radar right now. They aren't focused on it and they aren't discussing it in any way, shape or form. And the relationships between the Big East, Fox and MSG are all on solid ground.

Any of that could change at some point.

Any of that may not change at all.

Where does that leave us and this discussion? Most likely watching five things, in particular, moving forward:

1. Fox's overall progress with FS1.

2. Big East television viewership numbers.

3. The level of ongoing success with the Big East Tournament.

4. Developments, if any, in the world of big-time college football; not just P5, but the survivability of certain non-P5 programs.

5. The date for when the "Conference realignment discussion - v. 2016" thread is started.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

sheg great follow-up post. And Christi was finally honored in UD Arena in proper fashion. I'm sure that meant a great deal to her.

This.

Terrific post, xudash. Same goes for sheg's posts.

[Bill Marsh]

expansion is not on the radar right now. They aren't focused on it and they aren't discussing it in any way, shape or form. And the relationships between the Big East, Fox and MSG are all on solid ground.

XU Dash, you made a lot of good points in your post. As usual. Thanks for providing some good reading.

As for this one point about expansion not being on the radar, you state it as a fact. Do you know it as a fact? Inside info? Link? I'm confused.

Or should I be reading your statement above as opinion?

Thanks in advance for clarifying.

[_lh]

This thread is 52 pages long so please excuse this question but does the BE have to expand past the 10 current teams? What would make the BE have to expand?