Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[X Factor]

When Archie leaves, we'll see where Dayton goes. For all the Archie worship at Dayton, he still hasn't won a conference championship. With X, Butler, and Temple leaving, and now VCU going through some major change, we'll see if UD can finally win a conference title. The last time UD made 3 consecutive NCAA tournaments was 50 years ago!

Xavier has the LONGEST streak in the COUNTRY of consecutive seasons at or above .500 in conference play.

Xavier is 1 of 9 schools to make 5 Sweet 16's in the last 8 years.

Xavier is 1 of 11 schools to have at least 9 NCAA tournaments in the last 10 years.

The next step for Xavier is to break through and make a Final Four. Who knows if or when that will happen. It is so hard to do.

I also want to say that Xavier lost Jordan Crawford early to the NBA, as well as Semaj Christon. Everyone knows about the Dez Wells debacle, and his leaving X for Maryland.

Those are 3 players that X lost early - 2 to the NBA and 1 due to foolishness on Xavier's part. It's hard to replace those kinds of players, unless you're UK, Duke, Arizona, Kansas, and maybe a few others.

That would be like UD losing Sibert after 1 year, Scoochie after 1 year, and Pollard - although those guys aren't as good as the players X lost.

Dayton has had a nice 2 years. Archie is an excellent coach. We'll see where UD is in a few years once Archie is gone.

[ta111]

I say it is best to look at success, or lack thereof, since the inception of the NBE. You can pull out any other time frame and make any argument you want, ie, Dayton had the winningest team in all of college bball over the 50's and 60's or X had so many sweet sixteens over the past 25 years. We live in a "what have you done lately" environment and Dayton has been more successful over these past two years than any NBE team in the tourney. Add in the women's team and Dayton is only one of 5 teams to have both the men's and women's team reach the E8 over past two years.

[ivet]

This thread is getting out of hand. You guys are just going back and forth arguing who's got the bigger ____.

What about his...what if Boston College decides they no longer want to put up that much money for their football players and decide they want to just focus on basketball. Should the BE pick them up? Boston Market, East Coast presence, member of the old BE, Private school-Ahem..Catholic.

[UD FAN]

I don't see how the geography argument is hard to understand. Right now the BE elevates X to the biggest program in SW Ohio. It's natural to want to preserve that status. Dayton probably won't surpass X if they joined the BE but they definitely won't if they stay in A10.

It's hard to understand because being the only program in an area doesn't guarantee success and because having two programs in an area doesn't prevent success. Duke and North Carolina are 2 of the most successful programs in college basketball history and they're just down the road from each other. In addition, a 3rd team in close proximity, NC State has won 2 national championships.

Same is true for Kentucky and Louisville. Georgetown and Maryland, both with great histories, are a stone's throw from each other. BYU and Utah have succeeded in the same area. At one time, St. John's and NYU thrived in the same city until NYU dropped the sport.

The fact is that strong rivalries fuel interest in both programs. A combination of Xavier and Dayton would increase interest in the Big East in Ohio, a populous state. which would be good for the conference.

It's pretty clear after watching this unfold that according to about 4-5 Xavier posters UD is unworthy------no matter how these issues are analyzed!

Ud and X aren't a "real" rivalry according to some of these guys/gals---------yea right! "I have some swamp land".........

It is clear that UD's basketball "resume" compared to Xavier's does NOT compare on many levels at least if your looking at the past 20 years that X dominated the A-10. They've earned the right to be included in the initial expansion of the NBE. No doubt about it! But take a look at the threads and it is CLEAR that U the University of Dayton is not only a viable candidate who would add loads to the NBE conference should expansion take place (including both it's financially stability but also wonderfully successful basketball programs), but The University of Dayton will be just fine one way or the other!

Every team including current and original, newly added NBE members and those names being bantered around if expansion takes place have "holes" right! Lots of appearances, few NCAA wins or a lack of e8 appearances, public vs. private, lower attendance, "lower attendance numbers", etc. NO candidate for expansion three years ago as the original expansion took place was without "holes", and that is the case today!

Anybody who has followed this thread knows about the many positive attributes associated with UD. For a couple X fans, no matter what The University of Dayton accomplishes, it will NEVER be enough, you remember how it began-------no NCAA appearances, no NCAA wins, No S16 or E8 appearances in years, no sustained success, yada, yada, yada! Well now it's gotten to the daily novena's and prayers with the request being that Archie will leave UD, complaints that we're located "to close" to Cincy, etc. What's next now that we've been able to win some NCAA games and we've reached the E8 again right on cue! LOL

Now I'm convinced that some who follow X and claim to be fans of there program on this forum and elsewhere would love nothing more than to see Archie leave UD and head elsewhere------so be it! I guess that means we are doing something right----right! It's rather clear that as most fans of the other NBE schools get to know "us" they'll find out why we are a great fit for this conference and we've proved for ever that we take our hoops very serious out here in Dayton! We'll add an incredible amount to the conference on all levels------including basketball "wise"!

UD will be fine either way (NBE or A-10) although many UD fans hope to get a NBE invite, trust me we'll be just fine! Been just "fine' since 1850......although acquiring the 200+ acre's, recent p/s with GE, UDRI dollars, our 10% international student body, etc. continue to expand our horizons and opportunities. Also things like our campuses in both China and India....solid stuff!

Many folks interested in the long term viability of the NBE, it's sustained "academic", enrollment and research oriented sucesses, the conferences overall reputation relative to all things that "really matter" including it's academic reputation amongst it's peers and it's overall athletic programs etc., know that UD is a natural and appropriate candidate for the 11th or 12th team! Tell me who might be a better candidate....who fits the "overall criteria"?

Some will always point to something, some "reason" that UD shouldn't be added-------I would expect nothing else from "some" folks. Really doesn't change the fact(s)-------all of which strongly suggest that UD should be included in the conference of some of the best academic Catholic institutions (who also play basketball) in the east and mid west!

UD is thriving on "ALL levels" including but NOT limited to it's men's and women's basketball programs----------and have been for years (so glad that the b-ball programs both have recent E8 appearances, etc now also) to go along with the rest of the story!

We would love to see some of your teams come into the arena-----time will tell! Should be fun too watch it unfold over time---in the meantime, trust that the Flyers will continue to excel and strive for the highest level(s) of success on the fields and in all other ways!

PS every team, every fan base has a "couple of folks" that need to step away from there computers a little more often than they do IMHO! It's clear from our "reputation" with ESPN, the NCAA tournament, all the teams that have played in Dayton in relation to the NCAA tournament or generally-------that the arena and its atmosphere makes it a very special place to watch a game & our fans at UD are knowledgeable and wonderful on the whole, despite what a couple folks might say!

[MUBoxer]

Then you have your answer, don't you. No one cares about dated accomplishments. If anyone cared about dated accomplishments, wouldn't UD already be in the Big East?

Xavier's resume does blow Dayton's resume out of the water. It blows it out of the water with respect to the NCAA Tournament as it is presently configured - call it the modern era with at least 64 teams competing in it. Beyond that, it blows UD away in head-to-head competition in that same time frame. And Xavier was primarily responsible for the A10's financial success and exposure during its last 10 years or so in it, while UD bumbled its way to anointing itself pre-season champion about every year on its way to racking up a .500 conference performance.

You don't have a reading comprehension problem based upon what the Marquette fan wrote. You simply have a comprehension problem.

With all due respect I feel like X fans will naturally feel that way because the vast majority of your success has come recently. At MU, Georgetown or Nova I'd guarantee we care tons about our titles, I'm sure Depaul cares tons about the George Mikan final four as well as the Mark Agguire final four. A big selling point of this conference is the tradition (new and old) of these teams. For the kids going to high school now they've been alive for just 4 St Johns NCAA tournament appearances, doesn't mean they won't know that St Johns has a great history.

That being said Dayton fan touting that runner up as the reason they're better than X is like a Loyola Chicago fan saying they're the best team in Illinois because they won the championship. They haven't had remotely the same consistency.

I'm not, nor are any Dayton fans here touting it. I simply was using your own argument. You never specified in your original post as to a timeframe. You used ALL of history, which I appreciate it. I clearly recognize that Xavier and Dayton haven't been on the same page as far as this goes in the last 25 years.

And you are right...this argument has been going on for 10+ years on another board where X fans are basically accused of thinking basketball was invented in 1986. I think ALL of basketball history is relevant. X fans don't seem to agree with that so much. So despite X's dominance of Dayton in recent years, they STILL trail Dayton in the all time series by double digits.

For example, I have a younger relative who is a die hard X fan. He became an X fan during the Sato years. The worst season he has seen is 17-14. To talk to him is like talking to a UK or Duke fan, without the banners of course. Xavier basketball to him is a dominant force and it matters not one bit what happened in say 1967 (or even 1984 or 1990). So this is a circular argument that I've quit having with him at all costs. X fans will do the same thing Dayton fans have done 20 years from now...both sides will continue to move the goal posts to fit their timeframe argument. I said to him the other day that in the last 4 years, there's been no difference between the two programs, he lost his marbles....but go look it up. None. Most likely there won't be a whole lot of difference between X and Dayton next year either, save a round or two in the tourney. But you can bet your bottom dollar when X first started wailing on Dayton, those first 5 years mattered to X fans. To Dayton fans, "hey, but look at the last 15 years". It's a circular argument, just like sports are circular.

Another point in this though is Dayton hasn't been as bad as the perception here is making it out to be during that timeframe. X was just extremely dominate during that time period. For example, I know SLU has been brought up as to why the BE should wait on a Dayton. Dayton, in the last 15 years, hasn't had even close to as bad as a year that SLU has had and as Marsh has pointed out, has compared well with Creighton. Dayton had almost all 20 win years under Purnell and Gregory and competed....but could never get over the hump that Xavier always seemed to be able to year in and year out.

But none of this matters as to if and why Dayton should be included should the BE expand in the future. Some of the best arguments for Dayton are being laid out here by non biased fans and that's telling. I'll never expect a Xavier fan to go to bat for Dayton in this argument but when SBU, Butler, St. John's, ect fans are, it's telling.

I know I didn't say which matters more. To me this X fan underrated history and to me the Dayton fans that I've dealt with are still stuck in 65-70. All I was doing with my post was trying to show that the overall body of work was on the lower end of the Big East and given that I do not think that Dayton is a fit at this moment in time.

Like I said Dayton is the best available option but that doesn't mean we should force them to fit. If Archie goes then you're in the cellar of mediocrity again, look what happened to MU after Buzz and we had 7 top 100 guys. Now I will say if Dayton strings 2-3 more years of this success and Archie doesn't leave I'll gladly eat my words and be all in for Dayton. In the same sense Id take Davidson as well if they continue to be good in the A10. To your SLU point Ill never understand the obsession with them. They don't have nostalgic tradition, they've been good but not great for a few years, they bring a new market but not exactly a gigantic one that offsets the negatives.

[Bill Marsh]

With all due respect I feel like X fans will naturally feel that way because the vast majority of your success has come recently. At MU, Georgetown or Nova I'd guarantee we care tons about our titles, I'm sure Depaul cares tons about the George Mikan final four as well as the Mark Agguire final four. A big selling point of this conference is the tradition (new and old) of these teams. For the kids going to high school now they've been alive for just 4 St Johns NCAA tournament appearances, doesn't mean they won't know that St Johns has a great history.

That being said Dayton fan touting that runner up as the reason they're better than X is like a Loyola Chicago fan saying they're the best team in Illinois because they won the championship. They haven't had remotely the same consistency.

I'm not, nor are any Dayton fans here touting it. I simply was using your own argument. You never specified in your original post as to a timeframe. You used ALL of history, which I appreciate it. I clearly recognize that Xavier and Dayton haven't been on the same page as far as this goes in the last 25 years.

And you are right...this argument has been going on for 10+ years on another board where X fans are basically accused of thinking basketball was invented in 1986. I think ALL of basketball history is relevant. X fans don't seem to agree with that so much. So despite X's dominance of Dayton in recent years, they STILL trail Dayton in the all time series by double digits.

For example, I have a younger relative who is a die hard X fan. He became an X fan during the Sato years. The worst season he has seen is 17-14. To talk to him is like talking to a UK or Duke fan, without the banners of course. Xavier basketball to him is a dominant force and it matters not one bit what happened in say 1967 (or even 1984 or 1990). So this is a circular argument that I've quit having with him at all costs. X fans will do the same thing Dayton fans have done 20 years from now...both sides will continue to move the goal posts to fit their timeframe argument. I said to him the other day that in the last 4 years, there's been no difference between the two programs, he lost his marbles....but go look it up. None. Most likely there won't be a whole lot of difference between X and Dayton next year either, save a round or two in the tourney. But you can bet your bottom dollar when X first started wailing on Dayton, those first 5 years mattered to X fans. To Dayton fans, "hey, but look at the last 15 years". It's a circular argument, just like sports are circular.

Another point in this though is Dayton hasn't been as bad as the perception here is making it out to be during that timeframe. X was just extremely dominate during that time period. For example, I know SLU has been brought up as to why the BE should wait on a Dayton. Dayton, in the last 15 years, hasn't had even close to as bad as a year that SLU has had and as Marsh has pointed out, has compared well with Creighton. Dayton had almost all 20 win years under Purnell and Gregory and competed....but could never get over the hump that Xavier always seemed to be able to year in and year out.

But none of this matters as to if and why Dayton should be included should the BE expand in the future. Some of the best arguments for Dayton are being laid out here by non biased fans and that's telling. I'll never expect a Xavier fan to go to bat for Dayton in this argument but when SBU, Butler, St. John's, ect fans are, it's telling.

I know I didn't say which matters more. To me this X fan underrated history and to me the Dayton fans that I've dealt with are still stuck in 65-70. All I was doing with my post was trying to show that the overall body of work was on the lower end of the Big East and given that I do not think that Dayton is a fit at this moment in time.

Like I said Dayton is the best available option but that doesn't mean we should force them to fit. If Archie goes then you're in the cellar of mediocrity again, look what happened to MU after Buzz and we had 7 top 100 guys. Now I will say if Dayton strings 2-3 more years of this success and Archie doesn't leave I'll gladly eat my words and be all in for Dayton. In the same sense Id take Davidson as well if they continue to be good in the A10. To your SLU point Ill never understand the obsession with them. They don't have nostalgic tradition, they've been good but not great for a few years, they bring a new market but not exactly a gigantic one that offsets the negatives.

History and recent success are both important but they're not the only things that re important.

Attendance, fan base, and financial stability are all important as well. Dayton has all those in spades and they are a perfect fit with the conference's mission. Given the assets which the Dayton program brings, getting back on the winning track should gaunt their program to the top of a short list of candidates. How much recent winning is enough? That will vary from person to person, but I doubt that it will take much more than what they've done over the last half dozen years.

[Hall2012]

I say it is best to look at success, or lack thereof, since the inception of the NBE. You can pull out any other time frame and make any argument you want, ie, Dayton had the winningest team in all of college bball over the 50's and 60's or X had so many sweet sixteens over the past 25 years. We live in a "what have you done lately" environment and Dayton has been more successful over these past two years than any NBE team in the tourney. Add in the women's team and Dayton is only one of 5 teams to have both the men's and women's team reach the E8 over past two years.

Problem is the Big East isn't looking for any one (or two) hit wonders. If that were the case, they'd have already added Dayton, along with SFA, Mercer, St. Louis, Drexel, etc... For any mid-major to truly be a legitimate expansion candidate, they need to show consistency. Look at the 3 schools the Big East initially added for example.

From 2000-2013 (Big East invite)
Xavier- 11 NCAA Tournaments, 4 sweet 16s, 2 elite 8s, and 10 conference championships (including regular season and tournament)
Butler- 9 NCAA Tournaments, 7 round of 32, 4 sweet 16s, 2 elite 8s, 2 final fours, 14 conference championships
Creighton- 8 NCAA Tournaments, 11 conference championships, and happened to be bringing the best player in the country with them.

When a school in a mid major conference pops up that wins consistently for a decade plus like these three, then we can have a legitimate discussion about adding that school. The only one that currently fits the bill is Gonzaga, but they come with the well noted distance issue.

The fact of the matter is that the Big East is still fighting for the respect of the F5 and can't afford to risk watering down its product by adding every hot mid major that has a good 2-3 year stretch. I'm personally not in favor of expanding from 10 teams at all, but if it has to happen Dayton does have the potential to be a good candidate. However, first they need to prove their sustainability by turning those back-to-back NCAA Tournament appearances into something like 8 out of 10.

[MUBoxer]

History and recent success are both important but they're not the only things that re important.

Attendance, fan base, and financial stability are all important as well. Dayton has all those in spades and they are a perfect fit with the conference's mission. Given the assets which the Dayton program brings, getting back on the winning track should gaunt their program to the top of a short list of candidates. How much recent winning is enough? That will vary from person to person, but I doubt that it will take much more than what they've done over the last half dozen years.

Half dozen years? maybe two 11 seeds in seasons (3 in 7) is winning to you but I read that as barely squeaking in the tournament 3 times and catching lightning in a bottle once. I agree they're the best out there now but still have work left to do before it's a match made in heaven like you seem to insinuate it is.

[jaxalum]

There are reasons why UD was not considered when expansion happened this last go around. We can postulate what those reasons were all day, but only the C7 Presidents know for sure. The fact remains that there were enough reasons for UD to essentially not even be considered. Try this on for size. The powers that be searched 730 miles PAST UD to find a "better" fit in Omaha. That should tell you something right there. You can incessantly debate the so called merits as to why you should or should not have been selected, or why you suddenly now are deemed worthy. You can nit pick facts and stats, old and new, to further your case. In the end, you were found lacking and not selected. And to think ONE run in 30 years changes that is ludicrous at best.

You sound like the kid on the playground, who, when picking teams, is either picked last, or not picked at all. But he will endlessly justify his slight by manufacturing outlandish claims as to why he was not chosen. Classic defense mechanism for a severe inferiority complex. Your interminably blabbering and chest bumping is really quite sad.

Maybe you should step away from your computers for a quick reality check. You are on a conference board that is not your own, pleading with others to understand why you are "worth it", knowing full well that there is not a person on here that has ANY say and ZERO influence as to who might be chosen in the next go around of expansion if and when that may happen. We are talking ex-girlfriend, jilted lover, stalkerish tendencies here. It's depressing and annoying to see. As an X fan, I had hoped to never have to read another insufferable UD post again when X joined this Conference. Dreams don't always come true.

But sound reasoning has never stopped the scorned UD fan, and unfortunately, I don't expect that trend to change.

[jaxalum]

I say it is best to look at success, or lack thereof, since the inception of the NBE. You can pull out any other time frame and make any argument you want, ie, Dayton had the winningest team in all of college bball over the 50's and 60's or X had so many sweet sixteens over the past 25 years. We live in a "what have you done lately" environment and Dayton has been more successful over these past two years than any NBE team in the tourney. Add in the women's team and Dayton is only one of 5 teams to have both the men's and women's team reach the E8 over past two years.

Problem is the Big East isn't looking for any one (or two) hit wonders. If that were the case, they'd have already added Dayton, along with SFA, Mercer, St. Louis, Drexel, etc... For any mid-major to truly be a legitimate expansion candidate, they need to show consistency. Look at the 3 schools the Big East initially added for example.

From 2000-2013 (Big East invite)
Xavier- 11 NCAA Tournaments, 4 sweet 16s, 2 elite 8s, and 10 conference championships (including regular season and tournament)
Butler- 9 NCAA Tournaments, 7 round of 32, 4 sweet 16s, 2 elite 8s, 2 final fours, 14 conference championships
Creighton- 8 NCAA Tournaments, 11 conference championships, and happened to be bringing the best player in the country with them.

When a school in a mid major conference pops up that wins consistently for a decade plus like these three, then we can have a legitimate discussion about adding that school. The only one that currently fits the bill is Gonzaga, but they come with the well noted distance issue.

The fact of the matter is that the Big East is still fighting for the respect of the F5 and can't afford to risk watering down its product by adding every hot mid major that has a good 2-3 year stretch. I'm personally not in favor of expanding from 10 teams at all, but if it has to happen Dayton does have the potential to be a good candidate. However, first they need to prove their sustainability by turning those back-to-back NCAA Tournament appearances into something like 8 out of 10.

MUBoxers last couple of posts make good sense. Not in it for one hit wonders. Now if you can string together 8-10 years of that kind of success, thats what the conference would be looking for in my opinion.