Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[Hoopfan]

I find it humorous that X fans insist that they have somehow elevated UD's program by allegedly opening conference doors for them. UD has the fan support, money, facilities, etc to come back from a down period by themselves. UD was a basketball power when X was in the dumps. It's been cyclical with both programs. UD is doing just fine without association with X. We've been there. All that a "stiff arm" does is give UD a little more sunlight to strengthen the program faster right now. It succeeds on it's own merits.

Honestly, without X, UD may not even be in the A10 now. As bad as UD was when x helped us get into the league with them really saved us

[Bill Marsh]

Fordham back to the Patriot or the MAAC then?

If I'm the A10 a Wichita for Fordham trade I'm like where do I sign up.

Absolutely.

It's a shame that the A10 could never get itself to be forceful enough to implement and enforce strong standards for program management. Fordham and LaSalle, in particular (and that includes LaSalle's little bit of success not long ago) have been major drags on that conference. Duquesne also has been unable to pull itself up. That conference has always refused to address its deadwood. I understand that a certain amount of loyalty is warranted and I understand that relationships of this kind are entered into for long terms. But I also understand that there should always be a quid pro quo: if you are granted membership, there should be a clear understanding of an obligation on your part to maintain certain membership standards. That conference has been terrible in managing itself on that basis, and the administrations of some of its programs are terribly unaligned when it comes to building successful athletic departments - unaligned, incompetent, under funded or some combination of the above.

The A10 has taken a number of hits in terms of losing key programs over the years. If the A10 could remix itself, it would find itself in a much more sustainable position, though its TV money would still lag seriously regardless.

I don't know how any league does that. That's the risk of membership. Once you bring a team in, you own it.

[Ball Turret Gunner]

I find it humorous that X fans insist that they have somehow elevated UD's program by allegedly opening conference doors for them. UD has the fan support, money, facilities, etc to come back from a down period by themselves. UD was a basketball power when X was in the dumps. It's been cyclical with both programs. UD is doing just fine without association with X. We've been there. All that a "stiff arm" does is give UD a little more sunlight to strengthen the program faster right now. It succeeds on it's own merits.

Honestly, without X, UD may not even be in the A10 now. As bad as UD was when x helped us get into the league with them really saved us

There is no such thing as conference affiliation "saving" a program, IMO. If we had not been invited to the A10, we might have been invited to the Horizon or whatever worse league existed at the time. Dominating a small conference will put you on an elevated plane each time conferences re-shuffle. UD's following, money, facilities would never allow it to be a small fish in a small pond. A coaching cycle or two will always bring us back, no matter what league you drop us into. If we had been invited to the NBE, I'm sure there would be those claiming that it "saved the program". Look at how that is working out for us.

[BEX]

Lol @ all the hate from XU fans. Why are you guys so scared of Dayton. And most ppl know about Dayton and its basketball program.

We have won the last 28 in a row @ home against UD since 1981. Yeah, petrified.

[RDriesenUD]

I posted on an MU board about Dayton and wanted to bring that point over here. Dayton has 16 NCAA appearances, 24 NITs. Only three of those are Elite 8s (one a runner up). The thing that this conference has in many of the teams (minus the new three) is that each team had a period where they were pretty much on par with the blue bloods in the country. Dayton never had that and the recent success coincides with the two teams that dominated the A10 (temple and X) leaving so it's not even as impressive as a few years ago. They don't belong. No there's not a better fit but we shouldn't try and make something that doesn't fit, fit.

How many Elite 8's, Final 4's, Finals, and Championships does each team in the Big East have?

[XUFan09]

Lol @ all the hate from XU fans. Why are you guys so scared of Dayton. And most ppl know about Dayton and its basketball program.

We have won the last 28 in a row @ home against UD since 1981. Yeah, petrified.

Lol seriously.

I actually wouldn't entirely mind the addition of Dayton if they proved they could successfully replace coaches like Xavier, Butler, VCU, and so on. Sure, there's luck involved in coaching hires, but Archie Miller is the first good coach they have had in awhile. He's not getting ready to bolt at the first opportunity, but I also doubt he'll be their Mark Few. Having two successful coaching hires in a row would go a long way toward establishing Dayton as a highly desirable place for both coaching and playing.

I'm not that emotionally invested in rivalries, being a fan almost entirely focused on what is best for my team and by extension, my team's conference. Right now, there are a lot of questions as to whether Dayton is best for the conference. Luckily, expansion is not a highly pressing issue, so there is time to evaluate that risk, just as there is time to evaluate whether SLU can be more than Rick Majerus and whether UConn will give up on football. I think the second two things are less likely than Dayton maintaining success, but again, time will tell.

[JPSchmack]

I believe there were far more things wrong with the post than just one. First and foremost, Xavier has already twice been a member of a Conference with Dayton and I believe both schools have enjoyed those competitions. Why would X have balked at a third such arrangement. I further dispute the assumption that the Big East would be at 12 members now had either UD or SLU been located on the eastern seaboard somewhere. Neither of those schools had the on-court resumes that would have matched up with those of Butler, Creighton, and Xavier at the time.

I wasn't referring to Xavier University and their administration, I was referring to Xavier fans. It must be extremely fun to tweak your rival's fan base with "you're not good enough" even though it would benefit you greatly to have them in the league with you.

[JPSchmack]

Lol @ all the hate from XU fans. Why are you guys so scared of Dayton. And most ppl know about Dayton and its basketball program.

We have won the last 28 in a row @ home against UD since 1981. Yeah, petrified.

This is exactly my point.

Dayton and Gonzaga have virtually the same OOC win percentage over the last decade, the same number of Elite 8s over the last decade, Dayton has a better win percentage against power conferences than Gonzaga over the last decade.

Dayton's OOC scheduling is ridiculously excellent (like Xavier's is). Both schools tailor their OOC SOS to "we're walking into conference no worse than 8-4, with wins over mid-major powers that will win 22+ games to make our SOS look good, and a couple challenging games against the top teams willing to take us on, that we actually have a chance to beat." That's the OOC schedule model for both teams (X's has more challenging opponents because X is better). It's why UD & X agreed that the Linda Bruno scheduling plan was horrific.

But if Gonzaga comes to Cintas 28 times, how many games will they win? It's highly likely it is more than ZERO. Adding Gonzaga might bump X out of an NCAA spot. It's possible it frequently does. Dayton isn't.


I still think Bona is your best choice for team No. 12. But I understand why it's so difficult to convince you. I do not understand why you aren't convinced:

1. The Big East NEEDS 12 teams to get more NCAA bids, more revenue, and more opportunities for NCAA wins.
2. Dayton is perfect for the 11th team, it's just a matter of who's best for 12th.

[JPSchmack]

DePaul was just fine in C-USA when they were kicking the crap out of ECU, Tulane, USF, Houston and So Miss, and they hit the cellar in the 18-team Big East and are still trying to recover. How competitive in the mega-Big East were Providence & Seton Hall from 2001-2013?

There were one or two other notable teams in that league. Off the top of my head Louisville, Cincinnati, Marquette, and Memphis were all there while DePaul was "kicking the crap out of ECU, Tulane, USF, Houston, and So Miss."

Yes, that’s 8 good programs and 6 bad programs.

The Big East has 7 very good programs and 3 good programs performing badly in conference because someone has to.

Every conferences works the same way. The bottom third of every conference has no real realistic shot at an NCAA bid. Even if they're the best 10 teams in the country, 10th place is going to have too many losses for an at-large worthy RPI.

The best your top 8 can do is have a combined 56 conference losses, an average of 11-7 (but your worst two teams are too good to go 2-34).
If you brought in any two terrible teams, your top eight could go 103-41 combined in conference, an average of 13-5, which puts all of them into the dance.


Now, if the bad teams you add were schools like Fairfield (.431 OOC win pct over last decade) or Siena (.496 OOC win pct over last decade), it lowers the value of your 19+ conference games, it’s offset slightly by winning more games against them, you 10 have better records, but your RPIs are about the same (+.0002 each).


What you NEED is two teams who are worse than the 10 of you, but still better than everyone else outside the power conferences and will bring in 8-4 or 9-3 records OOC.

Dayton and Bona would cause Big East conference game SOS to dip very, very slightly, but every additional win adds .0081 to a team’s RPI. The top 8 of the Big East is going to beat Bona at least once, most of them twice. Which puts Dayton & Seton Hall safely in, eight bids.

[XUFan09]

Dayton's OOC SOS has in no way been "ridiculously excellent." Just checking Kenpom because it's very user-friendly, Dayton's non-conference schedule has been ranked in the top 100 only three times (2002, 2003, 2010) in the years covered (2002-2015) and has never been higher than 159th under Archie Miller.

Gonzaga in that same span of time has had a top 100 schedule in all but two years (2012, 2014) and has had six top 50 schedules, which goes a long way in explaining the disparity in OOC winning percentage. I think Gonzaga is overrated by the media, but they are still on a whole different level from Dayton.