Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[JPSchmack]

Actually, those are good, if not favorable comparisons for StB.

Regardless, though your argument is fruitless as StB doesn't stand a foreseeable chance of being added to the Big East, I am very much enjoying your campaign. It's nice to read something new on these expansion discussions.

Yeah, the comparisons are actually fine. It’s the premise of “doing the SEC/ACC/A10 a favor” that I was rejecting.

And this really is less about Bonaventure (who I don’t really think has a realistic chance; If Dayton wasn’t so close to Xavier, I think it would be obvious they should be included, and then the “Bona should be 12th” could be a real discussion).

Now I’m more interested in convincing people that their conventional wisdom factors are silly when they are really freaking silly. (And as if on cue…)

You say we need people to tune in but 3,500 fans per game tells me no one is going to tune in to see the Bonnie's play.

This is what I mean. Attendance is normally an indicator of a popular program. But you need people watching on TV, not people in the arena. The people in the arena aren’t watching on TV. And 95% of Bona alumni don’t live in Olean — which is why the Bona ticket sales for the A10 tournament were greater than that of a home sellout). The alumni chapters of Buffalo, Rochester, and all the smaller ones in Western New York outnumber the Olean alumni chapter 7-to-1. The alumni chapters of the NY DMA are also 7-to-1. There’s more Bona alums in CLEVELAND than in Olean.

In other words, Bonaventure fans have to watch on TV. Which is what you NEED. And they live in a large untapped area with tiny schools that provide no competition.

With the Big East brand attached to Bonaventure, and with 18 games against Big East opponents, the 2.5 million people in the region are potential customers. That’s not true of Saint Louis, where Missouri & Illinois have the SEC/Big Ten brands associated and BCS football, or Davidson/Duquesne in ACC territory. Or Wichita with the Big 12 fans.

2.5 million people you can turn into Big East viewers by making the lone mid-major program in the area a major program.

You say the A10 tried to schedule harder because their commish said to do so and that commish was fired. What do you think will happen to our commish if she were to advocate adding the Bonnie's? What does your school bring to the table if they are the worst team in the league? That's a very good possibility.

She brings the league more NCAA Units. (like Seton Hall this year and Dayton’s NCAA Units come with it).

Scheduling tougher AT THE TOP of the league makes perfect sense. You guys did it and you WON. Last season, you didn’t win and were lucky to get a fourth bid after you beat each other up in conference play.



This is the terrible logic of conventional wisdom: You don’t need the “best possible program” to make the league better! You have an abundance of great programs!. The problem for Seton Hall, Creighton, and Marquette is that NINE of you can’t all go 8-10 or better in conference play. Why are you thinking like you’re the Atlantic 10, who just lost Temple & Xavier? They need the best available to stay relevant and not be the MAAC.

The 10-team configuration of 7 traditional NCAA teams and three strong programs that could be traditional NCAA teams if they weren’t in a loaded league is costing you potential bids.

You can't say OOC wins since we don't know if you can even do that at a higher level.

OOC is OOC. Big East affiliation has nothing to do with it. Going into a tougher league means scheduling easier OOC if we’re going to be at the bottom. Once we land Big East recruits and start upsetting you pompous jerks (a playful jest, relax), THEN we’ll schedule tougher OOC.

Don't try abd say you won't schedule a tough OOC. That's not an option. This is a power conference, not a mid-major.

OOC SOS:
296 DePaul (6-7)
300 St Bona (7-4)

We’d help your league more than DePaul. The bottom of the league doesn’t NEED OOC SOS, because they’re not competing for an at-large bid. The Big East should expand because three of your bottom four teams COULD compete for an at-large bid if you actually HAD MORE THAN ONE BOTTOM TEAM.

You know why we had the #2 RPI this year? Because even our bad teams played and beat big time opponents.

No, that’s not true at all. You won FEWER top 50 games than last year OOC. You had the #2 RPI because you played more 51-200 teams, and fewer Top 50/bottom 150 teams:

7-12 vs Top 50 (11-21 in 2013-14)
19-7 vs 51-100 (8-4 in 2013-14)
34-6 vs 201-200 (31-3 in 2013-14)
33-5 vs 201+ (45-3 in 2013-14)

What do you bring the table? At least Saint Louis brings a big time market.

Saint Louis would be a wonderful doormat for you. Except they have no where to go. They were good under a Hall of Fame coach who’s now dead and even then their market watched Missouri, Illinois and Kansas, and you can never win those fans because of football.

You don't want to hear this but your school brings us nothing. We would give you everything and get nothing back in return. If we wanted nothing back we could invite any # of schools from Boston like Holy Cross or BU. This is a partnership, you need to elevate the conference just by your presence in the league. The Bonnie's don't don't do that, they don't bring anything of value.

I’m not offended by the ignorance. I’d simply implore you to take a good long look at what you, the 10 schools currently in, would actually get from any other school.

Everything you said about Bona’s lack of basketball performance points heavily towards Dayton being a great addition for you. But the Xavier fans don’t want that, because it hurts them.

Everyone you THINK “helps the Big East” hurts YOUR TEAM. What collectively helps the group? Someone who’s better than everyone else in the bottom 21 conferences, brings in an untapped region of TV viewers, but someone that the top eight of the Big East will have little trouble sending to a 3-15 conference slate.

That’s St. Bonaventure to a T. We do that better than any other potential addition. It runs contrary to the conventional wisdom of conference expansion, but The Big East runs contrary to the conventional wisdom at every turn. All the other conferences have expanded to address areas of weakness. The Big East’s largest weakness is that you’re too strong, beat each other up, and Seton Hall can’t get a 7th bid for the league because someone had to lose.

[JPSchmack]

If I remember right, SBU had 1 Top 50 win. A home buzzer beater against VCU who was without leading scorer Treveon Graham and PG Briante Weber. If you guys take SBU please take Fordham too, thanks.

15 VCU
28 Buffalo
35 Davidson

[JPSchmack]

dash,

All of what you laid out is a strong statement in support of Dayton's candidacy. They fit the bill in every conceivable way. But you don't want to elevate Dayton to X's level. None of the X fans do.

So why doesn't that apply to any addition? Why would you want to bring in one of the elite programs in college basketball and have Xavier end up like Seton Hall this year? 10-2 OOC, 6-12 Big East and no shot at an at-large bid. Xavier lost 13 times by Selection Sunday. Their SOS was fantastic, their RPI was good, easily got a bid. Do you get that bid with a 16-15 record had you lost to Gonzaga/Wichita State in BE play? I highly doubt it.

Do any programs actually exist in relative geographic proximity? Private, like-minded institutions with SOTA facilities averaging around 10K that don't have FBS football... If you count UD Arena as "State of the Art" the list is one: Dayton. If UD Arena isn't SOTA, the list is empty.

A third of the Big East doesn't meet that criteria. With an NCAA team, and a metro area of 20 million people, St. John's drew less than 2,000 more fans than the capacity of the Reilly Center. Affiliation is a two-way street. The teams that made the Big East great to begin with didn't enter the league playing in NBA arenas in front of 10,000 fans every night. It was synergy. The success of the Big East moved the games to NBA arenas. If 10,000 try to buy tickets to Big East games at St. Bonaventure, then we'll have to build a bigger arena.


The bigger question is: Can a commitment exist without the arena/facilities in place? I'd say yes. You don't exceed expectations year after year, punch above your weight class year after year, and on occasion beat programs like Xavier to win an A-10 title (then 3 seed Florida State "crushed us" by a whopping three points) without commitment.

When administration didn't live up to the expectations of character, EVERYONE was fired. One ineligible player and we removed everyone who let it happen: the entire basketball staff, the AD and the President (One member of the board freaking killed himself because it happened on his watch). Compare that to the eligibilty violations with multiple players over six seasons at another upstate NY school, where the defiant coach has to be forced to sit out nine games.


And I'm not suggesting Bonaventure as a lone addition because they alone make the league better. I'm saying Dayton fits your bill, no one else does. And Bona is by far your best option for a 12th team, because it elevates the rest of you and taps into a big population where there's no competing teams which addresses "market" better than anyone else you could consider.

[stever20]

dash,

All of what you laid out is a strong statement in support of Dayton's candidacy. They fit the bill in every conceivable way. But you don't want to elevate Dayton to X's level. None of the X fans do.

So why doesn't that apply to any addition? Why would you want to bring in one of the elite programs in college basketball and have Xavier end up like Seton Hall this year? 10-2 OOC, 6-12 Big East and no shot at an at-large bid. Xavier lost 13 times by Selection Sunday. Their SOS was fantastic, their RPI was good, easily got a bid. Do you get that bid with a 16-15 record had you lost to Gonzaga/Wichita State in BE play? I highly doubt it.

Do any programs actually exist in relative geographic proximity? Private, like-minded institutions with SOTA facilities averaging around 10K that don't have FBS football... If you count UD Arena as "State of the Art" the list is one: Dayton. If UD Arena isn't SOTA, the list is empty.

A third of the Big East doesn't meet that criteria. With an NCAA team, and a metro area of 20 million people, St. John's drew less than 2,000 more fans than the capacity of the Reilly Center. Affiliation is a two-way street. The teams that made the Big East great to begin with didn't enter the league playing in NBA arenas in front of 10,000 fans every night. It was synergy. The success of the Big East moved the games to NBA arenas. If 10,000 try to buy tickets to Big East games at St. Bonaventure, then we'll have to build a bigger arena.


The bigger question is: Can a commitment exist without the arena/facilities in place? I'd say yes. You don't exceed expectations year after year, punch above your weight class year after year, and on occasion beat programs like Xavier to win an A-10 title (then 3 seed Florida State "crushed us" by a whopping three points) without commitment.

When administration didn't live up to the expectations of character, EVERYONE was fired. One ineligible player and we removed everyone who let it happen: the entire basketball staff, the AD and the President (One member of the board freaking killed himself because it happened on his watch). Compare that to the eligibilty violations with multiple players over six seasons at another upstate NY school, where the defiant coach has to be forced to sit out nine games.


And I'm not suggesting Bonaventure as a lone addition because they alone make the league better. I'm saying Dayton fits your bill, no one else does. And Bona is by far your best option for a 12th team, because it elevates the rest of you and taps into a big population where there's no competing teams which addresses "market" better than anyone else you could consider.

The problem with your logic is that the "better team" if you will wouldn't necessarily play Xavier 2x. Also maybe X doesn't then have to play Nova a 2nd time, which then they win a game there. So it's not a guarantee at all that Xavier would have lost 2 games in a row. So Xavier very possibly still gets in along with the strong expansion team.

[gtmoBlue]

JP's thesis may be old, reworked, overhauled, and rebuilt - but has merit and is "a thing of beauty". Such a campaign may have been bashed several times previously, but in reconfiguring his argument for the BE - it makes sense.

DePaul (10), Seton Hall (9), St Johns (8), and whomever of (alphabetically) Butler, Marquette, Providence, or Xavier; as the potential 7th place squad - can use the cushion provided by adding depth at the bottom (Dayton and another school). Adding depth to the bottom assures the top and middle have better records come tourney time. Such a strategic move should guarantee 6 bids minimum on a annual basis with an exceptional year being 8 bids.

However, as noted by an earlier poster - this is a high risk - low reward strategy. Putting out 8-10 million/yr to potentially gain 2-4 additional NCAA units ($300-600K - per school) with NCAA bids #7 and #8.

Great work JP. But it's a really tough sell.

[Gopher+RamFan]

2.5 million people you can turn into Big East viewers by making the lone mid-major program in the area a major program.


OOC is OOC. Big East affiliation has nothing to do with it. Going into a tougher league means scheduling easier OOC if we’re going to be at the bottom. Once we land Big East recruits and start upsetting you pompous jerks (a playful jest, relax), THEN we’ll schedule tougher OOC.

So you'll get Big East recruits, schedule tougher OOC, then start beating (upsetting) other BE teams - causing you not to be a doormat? These posts seem to have a lot of what the Big East can do for SBU. SBU offers only to be a doormat, and schedule easy OOC to play. The RPI game.

If the Big East wants a doormat, they should look at SLU which gives Creighton and MU a potential rival. Not to mention a new television base and nice arena.

[JPSchmack]

2.5 million people you can turn into Big East viewers by making the lone mid-major program in the area a major program.

OOC is OOC. Big East affiliation has nothing to do with it. Going into a tougher league means scheduling easier OOC if we’re going to be at the bottom. Once we land Big East recruits and start upsetting you pompous jerks (a playful jest, relax), THEN we’ll schedule tougher OOC.

So you'll get Big East recruits, schedule tougher OOC, then start beating (upsetting) other BE teams - causing you not to be a doormat? These posts seem to have a lot of what the Big East can do for SBU. SBU offers only to be a doormat, and schedule easy OOC to play. The RPI game.

If the Big East wants a doormat, they should look at SLU which gives Creighton and MU a potential rival. Not to mention a new television base and nice arena.

Well, that's obviously why I'd want to be a member (I was hoping you would be elitists who'd be convinced standing on our backs to reach the NCAA Tournament would be ensured, then after a few years, we'd turn the tables and stand on your backs! haha.) We're not supposed to compete in the A-10, and we do. We over-achieve with no money. With actual money, look out.

But if/when that happens, we'd become "Syracuse Lite." You guys forget how close Bona was to Syracuse in the 70s when the Big East talks began and Jake & Dave shut us out. What Syracuse brought the Big East in terms of media/viewers: Bringing the Eastern New York REGION and not just their CITY is what Bonaventure could do in the Big East with Western New York.

Again, Saint Louis is in a market with 2.5 million people, most of whom are fans of Missouri and Illinois, as well as lesser MVC/OVC schools.
Bonaventure is in a region with 2.5 million people, and the only other schools in the region are Canisius/Niagara (MAAC), and Buffalo (MAC).

[gosports1]

By the way, it will never happen and I don't want it to happen, but if we were to get Vanderbilt, Wake Forest and/or St Bonaventure into the Big East, we would be doing the SEC, ACC and A-10 a huge favor.

we already have Vandy! Womens LAX!

[Jet915]

Nice little excerpt from an article about Father Lennon regarding how Creighton got the Big East invite:

Joining the BIG EAST
Of all the accomplishments, receiving an invitation to join the BIG EAST Conference was probably the most visible.

“That was fun … well, I can say that now,” Fr. Lannon says with a laugh, recalling the process. “At the time, it was like a roller coaster.”

Fr. Lannon jokes that he and Athletic Director Bruce Rasmussen, to whom he gives much of the credit for Creighton’s acceptance, used to play a little game called “What are the odds?” — playing out various scenarios and Creighton’s chances of receiving an invite.

“At the beginning, I don’t think Bruce would go beyond 10 or 15 percent,” Fr. Lannon says.

As things started falling into place, Fr. Lannon remembers receiving a precisely worded call from a lawyer representing the BIG EAST schools. “He said to me, ‘This is not an offer; let me be very clear about this.’” He asked that Fr. Lannon sign a confidentiality agreement, after which, the lawyer continued, “I will share with you an agreement if we decided to invite Creighton.”

“Basically he was telling me if you were invited, this is what an agreement would look like,” Fr. Lannon says.

Fr. Lannon was in a regular meeting with his leadership cabinet, when a familiar name popped up on his cell phone.

“I normally don’t take calls during a meeting, but this time I excused myself.”

It was from his friend Fr. Dennis Holtschneider, president of DePaul University, a BIG EAST school. “It’s with great pleasure, and I’ve been delegated by the seven presidents, to call you to invite Creighton to join the BIG EAST,” Fr. Holtschneider said.

“I told him, ‘This is a great honor. We’re very excited,’” Fr. Lannon recalls.

The partnership was announced on March 20, 2013, in New York on Fox Sports, with Fr. Lannon and the other BIG EAST presidents in attendance, and Creighton officially became a member at 12:01 a.m. on July 1, 2013 — joining other newcomers Butler and Xavier in the league with DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John’s and Villanova.

http://www.creighton.edu/creightonmagazine/2015sprfeaturelannon/?utm_source=Social&utm_medium=Twitter&utm_campaign=CU_Mag&utm_content=Farewell_Lannono

[NJRedman]

You think we need western New York? The idea that St. Bonnie can bring 2.5 million viewers to the table is silly. Georgetown doesn't bring that many viewers to FS1. Great you can be out doormat, but if we wanted a doormat who schedules worse than DePaul we would invite BU, Holy Cross, Detroit or Duquesne. Also Saint Louis would be a much Bette for for that role. The rust belt isn't where we want to expand.

You can call me ignorant but I'm not the one advocating St. Bonnie to the Big East.