Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[Jet915]

Olean Welders in the BE? You can't be serious. Can't wait to bus up to the Reilly center in 3 feet of snow.

I am serious. And just gave you a plethora of facts as to how it makes the Big East better. Which ones did you struggle with?

You want to take Gonzaga, who's located in Washington's version of Olean and is 3000 miles away so you can grab a team that plays at 10 pm ET, will displace one of your NCAA teams, makes the 10 of you lose more, and (allegedly) increase TV ratings (when they drew under 800,000 on ESPN for their OT thriller against Arizona).

But you don't want a team that raises your current 7th place team to the NCAA bubble, gives you a realistic chance at 8 bids in a given year, and with the Big East brand can claim an area with 2.5 million people virtually uncontested... because of a bus ride? A bus ride you actually don't have to take. If your team is bussing three hours to Bonaventure, your director of ops should be fired. Charter to Bradford (if you're not playing the Bonnies in Rochester/Buffalo)

So we add a team so the other teams can beat up on them? That a great reason to add a team .

[muskienick]

Xavier didn't leave the A-10 to join the Big East only to have two of the A-10's also-rans (UD and Bona) be invited to the Big East a couple of years later. (Note: The Flyers and Bonnies almost never challenged for first place in the A-10 while XU and Temple were also members.) I speak only for myself as a Xavier fan. I want the Muskies to compete against teams whose names are well-recognized throughout the Country and who have a history of success on the hardwood and a history of success in the post-season. Such schools not already in the Big East would be Gonzaga, Wichita State, and VCU among those who fit the 3 criteria I listed as being important for potential additions to the Conference. Each, however, lacks one "profile criterion" to match those of the current members of our Conference: Gonzaga is about as far west as a school could be and still be in the continental U.S. Wichita State and VCU are both public, rather than private, institutions. UConn would be a great get but its football program would always be a looming cloud and a threat to the league's stability. Notre Dame is simply "pie in the sky" dreaming since the Irish have the best of both worlds with their current deal in the ACC. Needless to say, attractive schools for future membership in the Big East will have to be selected even with imperfect profiles. But under no circumstances should our League sacrifice quality, recognition, and a history of hardwood success and, instead, glom onto a school in what almost amounts to a suburb of of one of our current metro areas (Dayton to Cincy < 50 miles) and another in a small town (Olean, NY) that is about 75 miles from Buffalo and almost 120 miles from Rochester.

XU fans don't necessarily "hate" Dayton --- they simply don't think having UD in the Conference would substantially broaden the overall media appeal for the Big East while, at the same time, it would diminish the Muskies' current recruiting edge over the Flyers in our mutual recruiting footprints. I'm guessing that the earlier mention of St. Bona in this thread was done with tongue in cheek. As much as I supported the Bonnies and even rooted for them against all other A-10 members except Xavier, to consider them as a viable candidate for membership in the Big East is even sillier than suggesting Fordham, LaSalle, or Duquesne!

[marquette]

Wait, a St. Bonaventure fan? Here? Now I've seen it all. Welcome to the board.

[augkash]

Just rename this thread... bash Dayton and add vcu and the zags or I'm from Xavier we don't hate Dayton but they suck and haven't done nothing to be invited

[DeltaV]

Just rename this thread... bash Dayton and add vcu and the zags or I'm from Xavier we don't hate Dayton but they suck and haven't done nothing to be invited

We do have a tendency to go in circles in these threads...and probably will until the next conference shakeup happens.

It's fun to debate, but Gonzaga isn't going to move to the east coast, VCU isn't going private, UConn isn't dropping their football program, and Dayton fans aren't getting any less annoying.

[JPSchmack]

So we add a team so the other teams can beat up on them? That a great reason to add a team .

It actually is. The other power conferences have teams like TCU, Penn State, USC, Clemson, and Auburn that help in football and lose basketball games. The Big East has 10 prestigious basketball schools. You don't NEED to add two more powerful programs.

The reason all 10 Big East teams don’t make the NCAA Tournament ever year is because SOMEONE has to LOSE conference games. Conference play is a zero sum game.

If Kansas, Kentucky, Wisconsin, Duke, UNC, Villanova, Louisville, Virginia, Maryland and Notre Dame were a 10-team league, instead of being 252-47 combined on Selection Sunday, the BEST they can do is 198-101. 90-90 vs each other in conference, plus 11-11 in the conference tournament. THREE of those top 21 teams are going from NCAA powerhouses to outside the top 75 in the RPI because they HAVE to lose a combined 54 more games.

That’s what’s happening in the Big East. It happened to GT, SJU, and Marq last year, and Seton Hall this year.


You add Gonzaga to the top and BYU to the middle, and it bumps your 2-6 teams down a spot, and our 7-10 teams down TWO spots in the standings. You’ll get a 7th NCAA team from Gonzaga, and BYU is headed to the NIT with Seton Hall.

You add Dayton to the MIDDLE and Bona to the bottom, and it pushes your 7th team up a pair of wins; Dayton and Hall go dancing and you have eight bids. It’s really that simple.

[JPSchmack]

Xavier didn't leave the A-10 to join the Big East only to have two of the A-10's also-rans (UD and Bona) be invited to the Big East a couple of years later. (Note: The Flyers and Bonnies almost never challenged for first place in the A-10 while XU and Temple were also members.)

Why would you WANT a team to challenge your status within the Big East?

But under no circumstances should our League sacrifice quality, recognition, and a history of hardwood success and, instead, glom onto a school in what almost amounts to a suburb of of one of our current metro areas (Dayton to Cincy < 50 miles) and another in a small town (Olean, NY) that is about 75 miles from Buffalo and almost 120 miles from Rochester.

First off, you wouldn’t be sacrificing any quality at all. All the programs currently in the Big East would still be there. Seton Hall would win move games (over Bona), hell, XAVIER would win more games because YOU OWN DAYTON. Your 10 current members would combine to WIN MORE GAMES unless Dayton AND Bonaventure both finish over .500 in Big East play.

The only way the league gets worse is if Bonaventure & Dayton have a worse OOC win percentage as the rest of the Big East. And they haven’t (NCAA sanction years not withstanding).

I realize you’re not in a position to trumpet Dayton’s recent NCAA success, but 5 NCAA wins in two years (the Big East combined has 7) has to be considered additional quality.

You wouldn’t want a Big East team to beat Ohio State, Syracuse, and Stanford in the NCAA Tournament and bring the conference nine additional NCAA Units? I think that helps. And it DOESN’T HELP AT YOUR EXPENSE. That’s win-win.

XU fans don't necessarily "hate" Dayton --- they simply don't think having UD in the Conference would substantially broaden the overall media appeal for the Big East while, at the same time, it would diminish the Muskies' current recruiting edge over the Flyers in our mutual recruiting footprints.

The recruiting vs Dayton is the sole thing you’d have to be concerned about. But you dominated them when you were in the same league from 1995 to 2013. What the hell are you worried about?

I’d disagree with the media thing. Dayton’s the #2 market in the country from college basketball ratings. That area is fragmented amongst 5+ teams, and having X & UD gives you a plurality that DELIVERS a market the size of a top 18 market. (IF the airport was built in Middletown instead of Covington, you’d be one huge market like Dallas-Fort Worth already).

[TheBasketballOpinion]

^^^^^^^^

This bro wants us to add 2 more DePauls. That was honestly one of the dumbest arguments I have seen. "Water down the league so you can be more like the AAC and kill your RPI"

Also this whole Dayton conversation is absurd. As a Georgetown fan I see no value in adding them with Miller not staying long term. Same reason VCU should never be added.

[Hoyas]

^^^^^^^^

This bro wants us to add 2 more DePauls. That was honestly one of the dumbest arguments I have seen. "Water down the league so you can be more like the AAC and kill your RPI"

Also this whole Dayton conversation is absurd. As a Georgetown fan I see no value in adding them with Miller not staying long term. Same reason VCU should never be added.

Except for the fact with VCU that they have done it with 2 other coaches as well.

And I guess then according to your logic we shouldn't have added Butler either then since Stevens left? That's just dumb.

[JPSchmack]

I'm guessing that the earlier mention of St. Bona in this thread was done with tongue in cheek. As much as I supported the Bonnies and even rooted for them against all other A-10 members except Xavier, to consider them as a viable candidate for membership in the Big East is even sillier than suggesting Fordham, LaSalle, or Duquesne!

Not tongue in cheek at all. And comparisons to FOR/LAS/DUQ are borderline insulting.

Fordham is a terrible basketball program in a market you have. LaSalle has had one good season in 20 years, and is in a market you already have. They’re not starters. Duquense is a terrible program in a market that don’t carry because of Pitt.

Bona has more NCAA bids the last 15 years than those three programs combined.

Say what you will about the Olean, but the reason you supported and even rooted for the Bonnies against everyone but Xavier is because: They don’t hurt their league.

In non-sanction years, they’ve had a winning OOC record in 15 of their last 16 seasons (And they’d scale it back if they were a Big East team and win more).
When they were bad post-sanctions, and when they lost Nicholson to the NBA, they scaled back their OOC schedule to win more.


And that brings me to Olean. Olean is tiny. There’s 15,000 people in the city. And a third of them are AT the Bonaventure home games. Bona grads do not live there. They live in Buffalo, Rochester, New York City, etc, etc. This is code for THEY WATCH ON TV.


The market Bonaventure exists in is not limited to just Olean. They are considered one of four Buffalo teams by the Buffalo media (and the best one by far). The college basketball reporter for the Buffalo News is a St. Bonaventure graduate. Bona isn’t begging them for coverage. Buffalo wants to cover Bona because they ARE BONA PEOPLE (as is half the basketball beat of the NY Post).

There is no Division I team in Rochester. There have been 25 Division I games in Rochester, all featuring St. Bonaventure.

It’s home territory. Is the entire population of the region all die-hard Bonaventure fans? No. Conference affiliation is a two-way street. Remember, it was Big East membership that MADE Syracuse into what they are today (The only reason Bona didn’t get invited to the original Big East is that Syracuse’s AD was Gavitt’s frat brother).

What Bonaventure “Brings” the Big East now isn’t a national pedigree that’s going to the dance and bringing in NCAA units. It allows the 6th 7th and 8th place teams to get into the NCAA Tournament and deliver NCAA units. Being in the Big East would then elevate Bonaventure to the top program in Western New York, and THEN they will then deliver you the No. 50 and No. 51 media markets.

Who else you going to get who can deliver TV viewers? Obviously not Duquesne. When you have Missouri and Illinois (and the MVC) Saint Louis isn’t going to bring as many viewers. The state of Kansas is only slightly larger than Western New York, and Wichita State is the third banana. Richmond and VCU divide their own market. Detroit? Ha, they’re all Michigan/State fans.


I strongly believe you guys are looking at expansion backwards. The P5 conferences are expanding because of football and because they need huge TV markets. You’re not.
Everyone else is expanding with “the best team available” because they got poached, you didn’t.

The A10 took VCU and Davidson because they lost Xavier & Temple. They needed to replace flagships because Duquesne, Fordham, LaSalle and Rhode Island aren’t strong enough to carry the banner of the league.

You’ve got EIGHT TEAMS that good, and two others who would be in the top three of a lesser league. You absolutely don’t need two more banner carrying teams. You need to get all eight of your banner carrying teams into the dance, and Bonaventure lets you do that, while tapping a very large untapped and uncontested TV area.