Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[stever20]

He made his point by implying that Creighton has no reason being in the BE over VCU because of our lack of tournament success. I totally disagree and don't understand the necessity of bashing a current member to make an argument about VCU. The only area that Creighton is lacking is our past tournament success. Apparently ending up in the top 25 the three years before 2015 and the huge fan support (over 17,000 per game in a 14-19 year) mean nothing. I could go on with many other reasons why Creighton was a great fit for the BE, but I suspect it wouldn't matter!

The thing is- when the decision was being made- it was in 2013. So it would have only been 2 years in the top 25 when the decision was made, with no tournament success at all. Same time, VCU was 2 years removed from the Final 4, and also had the great showing at the A10 tournament for fan support- and gotten a higher seed in the tournament that year. It's not what Creighton had meant nothing, just VCU was better in Basketball. But Creighton had the private trump card and that was that.

[Bill Marsh]

He made his point by implying that Creighton has no reason being in the BE over VCU because of our lack of tournament success. I totally disagree and don't understand the necessity of bashing a current member to make an argument about VCU. The only area that Creighton is lacking is our past tournament success. Apparently ending up in the top 25 the three years before 2015 and the huge fan support (over 17,000 per game in a 14-19 year) mean nothing. I could go on with many other reasons why Creighton was a great fit for the BE, but I suspect it wouldn't matter!

I don't think that was his point.

[Bill Marsh]

I disagree. A couple public schools would move the needle significantly for the Big East because it would help them break out of their niche. If a conference comprised entirely of small like minded institutions was such a good idea why was the Big East originally: Providence, St John's, U Conn, Syracuse, Rutgers, Seton Hall and Boston College. It was a diverse institution at the time. Gavitt understood, as does most CEO's, that diversity increases interest. People don't want to do business with entities they can't relate to. Gravitt understood this fact. Something our current Presidents and half this board don't seem to get.

Remember the U.S. is even more secular now then in the 70's so a conference of all Catholic schools ( and 1 that looks like a Catholic School) makes even less sense now than it did then. And it didn't make sense then either.

I don't disagree with your point. But I do want to correct one error. Rutgers was not an original member of the Big East. They were not admitted until 1995, 16 years after the conference was founded. Georgetown was the 7th original member and was left off your list. For all practical purposes, Villanova was also a founding member, but had to wait to join because they were obligated to give the Eastern 8 a year's notice that they were leaving. So, UConn was the only public school in the original group. Syracuse is private and non-Catholic, much like Butler - although bigger than Butler.

As for the Big East schools all being small, not exactly. DePaul (25,000) and St. John's (21,000), for example, have enrollments similar to many state universities. As for their appeal being limited to Catholics, the enrollments of these schools has changed along with the demographics that you mention. The student bodies are not as Catholic as they once were.

I do agree that one of the challenges before them is to figure out how to broaden their appeal.

[Butlerfan28]

I disagree. A couple public schools would move the needle significantly for the Big East because it would help them break out of their niche. If a conference comprised entirely of small like minded institutions was such a good idea why was the Big East originally: Providence, St John's, U Conn, Syracuse, Rutgers, Seton Hall and Boston College. It was a diverse institution at the time. Gavitt understood, as does most CEO's, that diversity increases interest. People don't want to do business with entities they can't relate to. Gravitt understood this fact. Something our current Presidents and half this board don't seem to get.

Remember the U.S. is even more secular now then in the 70's so a conference of all Catholic schools ( and 1 that looks like a Catholic School) makes even less sense now than it did then. And it didn't make sense then either.

I don't disagree with your point. But I do want to correct one error. Rutgers was not an original member of the Big East. They were not admitted until 1995, 16 years after the conference was founded. Georgetown was the 7th original member and was left off your list. For all practical purposes, Villanova was also a founding member, but had to wait to join because they were obligated to give the Eastern 8 a year's notice that they were leaving. So, UConn was the only public school in the original group. Syracuse is private and non-Catholic, much like Butler - although bigger than Butler.

As for the Big East schools all being small, not exactly. DePaul (25,000) and St. John's (21,000), for example, have enrollments similar to many state universities. As for their appeal being limited to Catholics, the enrollments of these schools has changed along with the demographics that you mention. The student bodies are not as Catholic as they once were.

I do agree that one of the challenges before them is to figure out how to broaden their appeal.

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't a fan at the time so I was going back and forth between here and Wikipedia. But clearly the Big East was and continued to be a diverse mix of public and private.

[stever20]

Also should say that it wouldn't have been a either/or situation with VCU and Creighton. I think the presidents if VCU had been private would have found a way to get them in the league. The question to me would the league have stopped at 10 with Xavier, Butler, and VCU- or would they have gone to 12 with Creighton and I'm going to assume SLU.

[Bill Marsh]

I disagree. A couple public schools would move the needle significantly for the Big East because it would help them break out of their niche. If a conference comprised entirely of small like minded institutions was such a good idea why was the Big East originally: Providence, St John's, U Conn, Syracuse, Rutgers, Seton Hall and Boston College. It was a diverse institution at the time. Gavitt understood, as does most CEO's, that diversity increases interest. People don't want to do business with entities they can't relate to. Gravitt understood this fact. Something our current Presidents and half this board don't seem to get.

Remember the U.S. is even more secular now then in the 70's so a conference of all Catholic schools ( and 1 that looks like a Catholic School) makes even less sense now than it did then. And it didn't make sense then either.

I don't disagree with your point. But I do want to correct one error. Rutgers was not an original member of the Big East. They were not admitted until 1995, 16 years after the conference was founded. Georgetown was the 7th original member and was left off your list. For all practical purposes, Villanova was also a founding member, but had to wait to join because they were obligated to give the Eastern 8 a year's notice that they were leaving. So, UConn was the only public school in the original group. Syracuse is private and non-Catholic, much like Butler - although bigger than Butler.

As for the Big East schools all being small, not exactly. DePaul (25,000) and St. John's (21,000), for example, have enrollments similar to many state universities. As for their appeal being limited to Catholics, the enrollments of these schools has changed along with the demographics that you mention. The student bodies are not as Catholic as they once were.

I do agree that one of the challenges before them is to figure out how to broaden their appeal.

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't a fan at the time so I was going back and forth between here and Wikipedia. But clearly the Big East was and continued to be a diverse mix of public and private.

Yes. I wasn't disagreeing with your main point.

Interesting footnote is that Rutgers was invited to join in 1979 but turned down the offer because they were hitching their wagon to Penn State and Joe Paterno's promise of an eastern all-sports league. Paterno's all-sports league never materialized and Rutgers lived to regret their decision while watching the deterioration of their basketball program, an Eastern power at the time and just a few years off a Final Four and an undefeated regular season. They did eventually get into the Big East but it took 16 years and they did eventually rejoin Penn state but that took 35 years.

Had Rutgers accepted the Big East invitation, Seton Hall would not have been invited and both of those programs would probably be very different today.

[HoosierPal]

ESPN Data says Dayton is your 'hot spot' candidate.

ESPN published their ratings by market. Dayton finished 7th. Sure those TV's were on The Ohio State U games, Dayton games, Cincy games, etc,. but people in Dayton are watching basketball on TV. That is what Fox Sports 1 should want, VIEWERS. Raleigh-Durham is Tobacco Road, KC is KU and Mizzou, Charlotte heavily ACC (a twist of Davidson perhaps?) and Memphis is Memphis. Sure it's ESPN data, but show me other data that says Dayton is not a TV basketball hot spot.

Louisville’s 13th Year as Top Market Sets Record for Highest Season Average of Any Market

ESPN telecasts in Louisville averaged a metered market-leading 5.9 rating, its 13th straight year at the top and the largest regular-season average for the sport on ESPN in any market on record. Greensboro, with a 3.0 average rating, ended the season with the second highest rating for the fourth consecutive year. Raleigh-Durham (2.7) and Kansas City (2.4) – which were tied for second last season — were the third and fourth top markets, respectively this year. The remaining top 10: Columbus (2.1), Cincinnati (1.9), Dayton (1.9), Indianapolis (1.8), Charlotte (1.8) and Memphis (1.8).

[Xudash]

Also should say that it wouldn't have been a either/or situation with VCU and Creighton. I think the presidents if VCU had been private would have found a way to get them in the league. The question to me would the league have stopped at 10 with Xavier, Butler, and VCU- or would they have gone to 12 with Creighton and I'm going to assume SLU.

Interesting scenario and question.

My only contribution to it would be to point out that there was that speculation that Fox would true-up it's deal if the BE stepped out with 12 teams.

Who knows.

[stever20]

Also should say that it wouldn't have been a either/or situation with VCU and Creighton. I think the presidents if VCU had been private would have found a way to get them in the league. The question to me would the league have stopped at 10 with Xavier, Butler, and VCU- or would they have gone to 12 with Creighton and I'm going to assume SLU.

Interesting scenario and question.

My only contribution to it would be to point out that there was that speculation that Fox would true-up it's deal if the BE stepped out with 12 teams.

Who knows.

Yeah. Fox would have been interesting(though you do wonder if VCU had been in the fold along with Butler and Xavier if ESPN would have been much more interested).

The question would be if the presidents hadn't felt comfortable with SLU at 12, would they have gone with Creighton or a private VCU to cap at 10? I think Fox(or ESPN) would have pushed for VCU. I think the bigger eastern programs would have pushed for VCU.

[Xudash]

ESPN Data says Dayton is your 'hot spot' candidate.

ESPN published their ratings by market. Dayton finished 7th. Sure those TV's were on The Ohio State U games, Dayton games, Cincy games, etc,. but people in Dayton are watching basketball on TV. That is what Fox Sports 1 should want, VIEWERS. Raleigh-Durham is Tobacco Road, KC is KU and Mizzou, Charlotte heavily ACC (a twist of Davidson perhaps?) and Memphis is Memphis. Sure it's ESPN data, but show me other data that says Dayton is not a TV basketball hot spot.

Louisville’s 13th Year as Top Market Sets Record for Highest Season Average of Any Market

ESPN telecasts in Louisville averaged a metered market-leading 5.9 rating, its 13th straight year at the top and the largest regular-season average for the sport on ESPN in any market on record. Greensboro, with a 3.0 average rating, ended the season with the second highest rating for the fourth consecutive year. Raleigh-Durham (2.7) and Kansas City (2.4) – which were tied for second last season — were the third and fourth top markets, respectively this year. The remaining top 10: Columbus (2.1), Cincinnati (1.9), Dayton (1.9), Indianapolis (1.8), Charlotte (1.8) and Memphis (1.8).

You do understand that the Dayton TMA is ranked 64th in the nation, right? Granted, Omaha comes in at #74, but Omaha isn't adjacent to the Cincinnati TMA, and obviously doesn't have a conference mate right next door (forget SJU and SHU in this regard, given the NY/NJ market). It's just not about a numerical Nielsen rating, it's about market size and location.

Actually, given that the Big East is holding at ten for a while and possibly for a very long time, and knowing that the primary drivers are television and programs that can drive NCAA Units on a sustainable basis, it has to be about "needle moving" and the right TMA mix and proven, sustainable programs.

Today, that only translates to UCONN and Gonzaga; perhaps VCU had Shaka stayed. Nothing else out there moves the needle or makes sense at this point.