Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[jaxalum]

Does anyone know the specific protocols that are used when and if expansion occurs? Does there need to be a unanimous decision for a school to be admitted? Can one dissenting member keep out another school? I can think of a few scenarios where certain member schools will do everything they can to keep out other schools, that is if they possess that power.

[R Jay]

It's just amazing how polarizing VCU is on here.

What will be interesting is if VCU goes out and does well with a new coach, the crutch that so many folks have used- that it was all just Shaka- would be totally and completely gone out the door. As if basketball has anything to do with it. Any one with any sense at all knows the only reason why VCU isn't in the Big East right now is the public issue. Period. Not a darn thing to do with basketball at all.

And lastly- what credentials did Creighton bring to the Big East? 3 sweet 16's when all you had to do was win 1 game? VCU had as many NCAA wins in 1 year that Creighton had from 1975 until Creighton got into the Big East. If you think pre '75 should mean something, Dayton should have gotten in then, they had 5 sweet 16's in that period, and actually made a national championship game. So what exactly are those serious credentials that Creighton brought to the Big East? Butler and Xavier- I'll totally give you- Butler with 2 title game appearances and X with all their NCAA tourney runs. But what are Creighton's credentials?

Catholic. Private. In the Midwest.
Obviously that mattered more to the presidents than on court success.
Hmmmmmm....

[stever20]

It's just amazing how polarizing VCU is on here.

What will be interesting is if VCU goes out and does well with a new coach, the crutch that so many folks have used- that it was all just Shaka- would be totally and completely gone out the door. As if basketball has anything to do with it. Any one with any sense at all knows the only reason why VCU isn't in the Big East right now is the public issue. Period. Not a darn thing to do with basketball at all.

And lastly- what credentials did Creighton bring to the Big East? 3 sweet 16's when all you had to do was win 1 game? VCU had as many NCAA wins in 1 year that Creighton had from 1975 until Creighton got into the Big East. If you think pre '75 should mean something, Dayton should have gotten in then, they had 5 sweet 16's in that period, and actually made a national championship game. So what exactly are those serious credentials that Creighton brought to the Big East? Butler and Xavier- I'll totally give you- Butler with 2 title game appearances and X with all their NCAA tourney runs. But what are Creighton's credentials?

Catholic. Private. In the Midwest.
Obviously that mattered more to the presidents than on court success.
Hmmmmmm....

I have no problem with that. Just don't insult my intelligence by saying that it was basketball reasons that kept VCU out, because that just isn't the case.

[UD FAN]

Dayton is in the conversation because it's Marianist first.

But since it IS a Catholic university, it's ahead of VCU.

Thats' the first time I've read that (maybe others have said it before and/or in other ways……..) but that's THE most important characteristic about the University of Dayton! Glad that our Marianist traditions seem to be as important to some on this holy land site as they are to the University of Dayton and most of it's fans! THX

[Butlerfan28]

VCU is unquestioningly a strong program, and would improve the Big East's basketball quality significantly. Whether it was under Smart, Grant or Capel, they won games and made the tournament consistently. Under those coaches (since 2002), they have made 8 NCAA Tournaments, won 5 conference tournaments, and were 4-time regular season conference champions.

Having said that, my two red flags are:

1.) It is a public institution. At present, the Big East is one of just a few conferences that has all the schools aligned in terms of institutional fit (private/Catholic schools), big media markets (largely populated cities) and a clear drive and emphasis towards being a top basketball program. VCU obviously meets the basketball emphasis, as it doesn't have football, but it is a public institution. Even if it added another public school (UConn, Wichita State, etc.), those public schools will always be outnumbered in conference talks. After what happened in the old Big East between the football/non-football schools, it would be hard to argue against keeping the league with like minded institutions. VCU doesn't fit that.

2.) Although it made the Final Four, VCU (under Smart, Grant, Capel, et al) has advanced to the Sweet 16 just once in its program history. For all of the mid-major luster it has given the media over the past several years, it has only made noise in the NCAA Tournament one time (2011 Final Four run). They have made an equal amount of Sweet 16s, Elite Eights and Final Fours as George Mason, who similarly had one great year (2006).

My counter point to VCU would be, as an example, Davidson - a private institution. Davidson has reached more Elite Eights (3 to 1) and Sweet 16s (4 to 1) in its program's history. It has similar NCAA Tournament appearances (13 to 14), more conference tournament championships (12 to 9) and more regular season conference championships (24 to 9). While I don't think Davidson will ever be seriously considered for a Big East invitation in my lifetime, Butler, Xavier and Creighton all brought serious credentials into the Big East (and have more than deserved their invitations as they have seriously helped elevate our league to being a top conference). I don't see what VCU (or Wichita State, or Saint Louis or Dayton) currently bring to the table to help make the conference better.

Yes it is like minded but that cut two ways. Like minded as you described equals niche market for support.

[XUFan09]

Does anyone know the specific protocols that are used when and if expansion occurs? Does there need to be a unanimous decision for a school to be admitted? Can one dissenting member keep out another school? I can think of a few scenarios where certain member schools will do everything they can to keep out other schools, that is if they possess that power.

The word I hear with Dayton specifically is that Xavier wouldn't actively block them but they wouldn't support their inclusion anyway. They'd just stand aside and let the chips fall where they may.

The BE is in a good position and thus doesn't need to expand at the moment. Because of that, it would probably have to be a slam dunk choice for expansion, in which case, I doubt any one school could wield veto power against the overwhelming support of the other schools. That last part is just a hunch, but it seems reasonable enough.

[myopicraiderfan]

The BE is in a good position and thus doesn't need to expand at the moment.

This is the point. I have read this board since it was created and this is all that is talked about. Which school would Fox up their contract for or I should say which school is worth paying 4.1 million to per year? UConn and maybe Gonzaga are really the only possibilities. VCU, WSU, SLU, and Dayton have all had great success in basketball. If this was a basketball decision they are added, but it isn't. It is a money decision between like minded schools. UConn is a no brainer, it brings prestige, dollars, and proximity. Gonzaga brings prestige and costs to every other school from larger travel budgets. VCU, WSU, SLU and Dayton would cost every other school money by causing the pie to be split more ways.

The Big East is in the same boat as the Big 12. Schools that want to come aren't able to move the needle with additional money for the conference. The conference will wait and see how the landscape changes with 4 year scholarships, payment to players, and what happens when the ACC\B12 GOR expire.

[gtmoBlue]

Does anyone know the specific protocols that are used when and if expansion occurs? Does there need to be a unanimous decision for a school to be admitted? Can one dissenting member keep out another school? I can think of a few scenarios where certain member schools will do everything they can to keep out other schools, that is if they possess that power.

The conference HQ will consult with the ADs to draw up a list of criteria/protocols prior to embarking on any expansionist efforts. Such criteria will probably be approved and signed off by an executive committee (univ's presidential level).
I doubt they would resort to using ancient Tranghese BE protocols or criteria, when and if that time comes.

If the league did a wholesale appropriation of the old. BE charter, bylaws, manuals, etc.; then it is safe to assume all those documents are subject to extensive revision and periodic updating or amendment, given the new regime. It is highly unlikely that any major undertaking would be done under the old BE rules. Especially since the league is years away from any serious consideration for expansion.

[trephin]

Dayton is in the conversation because it's Marianist first. Otherwise it would be automatically behind VCU due to on-court success (a narrow loss) and location (being that close to X is a tremendous drawback).

But since it IS a Catholic university, it's ahead of VCU.

I stated that attendance/support was likely a plus for CU and is likely part of UD's desirability as well. "Being in the conversation" does mean ranking; it merely means that - in this context - UD is among a pool of candidates considered for expansion. Catholicism likely is part of both of their desirability as well. VCU is "in the conversation" too. Unless someone is part of the decision making, how a pool of potential candidates are ranked can only be guessed.

I just think that Catholicism is just one small point of consideration that isn't enough to get a school "in the pool." IMO fan support/attendance, location etc trumps Catholicism in getting "in the pool." Otherwise, we'd seriously hear more about Duquesne.

[XUFan09]

Dayton is in the conversation because it's Marianist first. Otherwise it would be automatically behind VCU due to on-court success (a narrow loss) and location (being that close to X is a tremendous drawback).

But since it IS a Catholic university, it's ahead of VCU.

I stated that attendance/support was likely a plus for CU and is likely part of UD's desirability as well. "Being in the conversation" does mean ranking; it merely means that - in this context - UD is among a pool of candidates considered for expansion. Catholicism likely is part of both of their desirability as well. VCU is "in the conversation" too. Unless someone is part of the decision making, how a pool of potential candidates are ranked can only be guessed.

I just think that Catholicism is just one small point of consideration that isn't enough to get a school "in the pool." IMO fan support/attendance, location etc trumps Catholicism in getting "in the pool." Otherwise, we'd seriously hear more about Duquesne.

And further, Butler is not Catholic yet was a no-brainer addition next to Xavier. As someone said before, if Richmond (another private, non-religious institution) had what VCU has, they would have probably been added to the conference.