Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[Bill Marsh]

VCU is unquestioningly a strong program, and would improve the Big East's basketball quality significantly. Whether it was under Smart, Grant or Capel, they won games and made the tournament consistently. Under those coaches (since 2002), they have made 8 NCAA Tournaments, won 5 conference tournaments, and were 4-time regular season conference champions.

Having said that, my two red flags are:

1.) It is a public institution. At present, the Big East is one of just a few conferences that has all the schools aligned in terms of institutional fit (private/Catholic schools), big media markets (largely populated cities) and a clear drive and emphasis towards being a top basketball program. VCU obviously meets the basketball emphasis, as it doesn't have football, but it is a public institution. Even if it added another public school (UConn, Wichita State, etc.), those public schools will always be outnumbered in conference talks. After what happened in the old Big East between the football/non-football schools, it would be hard to argue against keeping the league with like minded institutions. VCU doesn't fit that.

2.) Although it made the Final Four, VCU (under Smart, Grant, Capel, et al) has advanced to the Sweet 16 just once in its program history. For all of the mid-major luster it has given the media over the past several years, it has only made noise in the NCAA Tournament one time (2011 Final Four run). They have made an equal amount of Sweet 16s, Elite Eights and Final Fours as George Mason, who similarly had one great year (2006).

My counter point to VCU would be, as an example, Davidson - a private institution. Davidson has reached more Elite Eights (3 to 1) and Sweet 16s (4 to 1) in its program's history. It has similar NCAA Tournament appearances (13 to 14), more conference tournament championships (12 to 9) and more regular season conference championships (24 to 9). While I don't think Davidson will ever be seriously considered for a Big East invitation in my lifetime, Butler, Xavier and Creighton all brought serious credentials into the Big East (and have more than deserved their invitations as they have seriously helped elevate our league to being a top conference). I don't see what VCU (or Wichita State, or Saint Louis or Dayton) currently bring to the table to help make the conference better.

Uhh . . .

What did Creighton bring that VCU doesn't have? Creighton didn't even have the Final Four run on their resume. In fact, Creighton only has 2 Sweet 16 runs in their history and both were accomplished back when the tournament only had 25 teams and it only took 1 win to get to the Sweet 16. Hardly comparable to what VCU accomplished. Moreover, Creighton doesn't bring the big market that the rest of the conference does. They do bring a very loyal fan base and sell out crowds in a big arena, which was a big plus for them.

The fact is that other than the Catholic/private thing, Creighton and VCU are very similar in terms of basketball history in that before Creighton's membership in the Big East, both have been powers in mid major conferences in recent years.

I don't know whether the presidents will view VCU favorably, but they have a number of things going for them:

1. A successful program that has now established itself with a run of success through the tenures of 3 different coaches, improving with each new coaching hire.
2. Capitalized on that success by upgrading and building new facilities.
3. Increased their profile by upgrading to a more competitive league.
4. Enrollment of 30,000, offering the potential of lots of fans.
5. As a state university in the state's capitol, bring a following from a population of 8 million people. Very good market.
6. Attract students from states in the Big East footprint to their north.
7. Located on I-95, only 330 miles from MSG, enabling fans to get to the tournament fairly easily either by car of by Amtrak.
8. Good fit with current footprint, offering a potential rabid rivalry with Georgetown. They'd hate each other.

[Bill Marsh]

Butler and VCU aren't really comparable. Butler went to two consecutive NCAA Championship games, and went to four Sweet 16's in the past 10 years. VCU went to one Final Four - and that was it. Both have made the tournament on regular basis, but only one program had sustained success in the tournament (Butler). Both had brand-name coaches (both since have moved on), though - I'll give you that.

You're focusing on the differences, but that doesn't mean the comparison isn't valid.

In terms of their gradual emergence over the tenure of several different coaches from irrelevance to the pinnacle of the Final Four in the same era, it's a very apt comparison. Obviously the level of success isn't identical, but in terms of building a program, they're a lot more alike than different.

[murphy]

VCU is unquestioningly a strong program, and would improve the Big East's basketball quality significantly. Whether it was under Smart, Grant or Capel, they won games and made the tournament consistently. Under those coaches (since 2002), they have made 8 NCAA Tournaments, won 5 conference tournaments, and were 4-time regular season conference champions.

Having said that, my two red flags are:

1.) It is a public institution. At present, the Big East is one of just a few conferences that has all the schools aligned in terms of institutional fit (private/Catholic schools), big media markets (largely populated cities) and a clear drive and emphasis towards being a top basketball program. VCU obviously meets the basketball emphasis, as it doesn't have football, but it is a public institution. Even if it added another public school (UConn, Wichita State, etc.), those public schools will always be outnumbered in conference talks. After what happened in the old Big East between the football/non-football schools, it would be hard to argue against keeping the league with like minded institutions. VCU doesn't fit that.

2.) Although it made the Final Four, VCU (under Smart, Grant, Capel, et al) has advanced to the Sweet 16 just once in its program history. For all of the mid-major luster it has given the media over the past several years, it has only made noise in the NCAA Tournament one time (2011 Final Four run). They have made an equal amount of Sweet 16s, Elite Eights and Final Fours as George Mason, who similarly had one great year (2006).

My counter point to VCU would be, as an example, Davidson - a private institution. Davidson has reached more Elite Eights (3 to 1) and Sweet 16s (4 to 1) in its program's history. It has similar NCAA Tournament appearances (13 to 14), more conference tournament championships (12 to 9) and more regular season conference championships (24 to 9). While I don't think Davidson will ever be seriously considered for a Big East invitation in my lifetime, Butler, Xavier and Creighton all brought serious credentials into the Big East (and have more than deserved their invitations as they have seriously helped elevate our league to being a top conference). I don't see what VCU (or Wichita State, or Saint Louis or Dayton) currently bring to the table to help make the conference better.

Your counter point of Davidson vs UD does not hold up UD is the largest private university in Ohio and the largest Catholic university in Ohio. Established in 1850.
14 ncaa appearances, 4 sweet 16s, 2 Elite 8s, 1 NCAA runnerup, 5 NIT runnerups - 2 NIT championships

[cm5yz6]

VCU is unquestioningly a strong program, and would improve the Big East's basketball quality significantly. Whether it was under Smart, Grant or Capel, they won games and made the tournament consistently. Under those coaches (since 2002), they have made 8 NCAA Tournaments, won 5 conference tournaments, and were 4-time regular season conference champions.

Having said that, my two red flags are:

1.) It is a public institution. At present, the Big East is one of just a few conferences that has all the schools aligned in terms of institutional fit (private/Catholic schools), big media markets (largely populated cities) and a clear drive and emphasis towards being a top basketball program. VCU obviously meets the basketball emphasis, as it doesn't have football, but it is a public institution. Even if it added another public school (UConn, Wichita State, etc.), those public schools will always be outnumbered in conference talks. After what happened in the old Big East between the football/non-football schools, it would be hard to argue against keeping the league with like minded institutions. VCU doesn't fit that.

2.) Although it made the Final Four, VCU (under Smart, Grant, Capel, et al) has advanced to the Sweet 16 just once in its program history. For all of the mid-major luster it has given the media over the past several years, it has only made noise in the NCAA Tournament one time (2011 Final Four run). They have made an equal amount of Sweet 16s, Elite Eights and Final Fours as George Mason, who similarly had one great year (2006).

My counter point to VCU would be, as an example, Davidson - a private institution. Davidson has reached more Elite Eights (3 to 1) and Sweet 16s (4 to 1) in its program's history. It has similar NCAA Tournament appearances (13 to 14), more conference tournament championships (12 to 9) and more regular season conference championships (24 to 9). While I don't think Davidson will ever be seriously considered for a Big East invitation in my lifetime, Butler, Xavier and Creighton all brought serious credentials into the Big East (and have more than deserved their invitations as they have seriously helped elevate our league to being a top conference). I don't see what VCU (or Wichita State, or Saint Louis or Dayton) currently bring to the table to help make the conference better.

Uhh . . .

What did Creighton bring that VCU doesn't have? Creighton didn't even have the Final Four run on their resume. In fact, Creighton only has 2 Sweet 16 runs in their history and both were accomplished back when the tournament only had 25 teams and it only took 1 win to get to the Sweet 16. Hardly comparable to what VCU accomplished. Moreover, Creighton doesn't bring the big market that the rest of the conference does. They do bring a very loyal fan base and sell out crowds in a big arena, which was a big plus for them.

The fact is that other than the Catholic/private thing, Creighton and VCU are very similar in terms of basketball history in that before Creighton's membership in the Big East, both have been powers in mid major conferences in recent years.

I don't know whether the presidents will view VCU favorably, but they have a number of things going for them:

1. A successful program that has now established itself with a run of success through the tenures of 3 different coaches, improving with each new coaching hire.
2. Capitalized on that success by upgrading and building new facilities.
3. Increased their profile by upgrading to a more competitive league.
4. Enrollment of 30,000, offering the potential of lots of fans.
5. As a state university in the state's capitol, bring a following from a population of 8 million people. Very good market.
6. Attract students from states in the Big East footprint to their north.
7. Located on I-95, only 330 miles from MSG, enabling fans to get to the tournament fairly easily either by car of by Amtrak.
8. Good fit with current footprint, offering a potential rabid rivalry with Georgetown. They'd hate each other.

I was wondering how long it would take for Billy Marsh to start dominating this thread with pro-VCU info. Especially after Shaka joined UT, I definitely thought it would be sooner than page 5/6, but as they say, "that's why they play the game."

[Bill Marsh]

Deleted.

[NJRedman]

In response to a previous post about VCUs past caching hires. The hire that the BE presidents and everyone else in the country will be looking at us who they hire next. If they get a guy who cannot win and they become a middle of the pack or worse A10 team then the luster of that FF and Smart run will certainly come off and open the door for another program to step up and into the conversation.

[cm5yz6]

Did I once say on any of my posts on this thread that the Big East should add VCU?

No.

Did I once say that you did?

No

[XUFan09]

Butler and VCU aren't really comparable. Butler went to two consecutive NCAA Championship games, and went to four Sweet 16's in the past 10 years. VCU went to one Final Four - and that was it. Both have made the tournament on regular basis, but only one program had sustained success in the tournament (Butler). Both had brand-name coaches (both since have moved on), though - I'll give you that.

You're focusing on the differences, but that doesn't mean the comparison isn't valid.

In terms of their gradual emergence over the tenure of several different coaches from irrelevance to the pinnacle of the Final Four in the same era, it's a very apt comparison. Obviously the level of success isn't identical, but in terms of building a program, they're a lot more alike than different.

Exactly. On the macro level of perception, the two programs rose from regional recognition to national awareness around the same time.

The casual fans and even some of the more serious fans probably don't know that Butler has had more tournament success than VCU, viewing them as comparable in stature.

[BEX]

Rick M had them pretty fired up. re: VCU - I don't think they'll miss a beat. Crazy fan base in a recruiting rich environment, if they get the former asst I think they will be solid.

Sorry. Their 4 star recruits will be in a holding pattern until they see who the coach is. Not to mention the current players. They came there to play for Shaka.

[Bill Marsh]

Deleted.