Back off the ledge

[anXUfan]

There is nothing wrong with the Big East. Expansion is not necessary.

[XUFan09]

There is nothing wrong with the Big East. Expansion is not necessary.

Yup.

[DudeAnon]

In the last 2 NCAA Tournaments the Big East is 0-6 when playing games in which they are +/- 3 seeds of their opponents(8v9, 7v10, 4v5, etc).

The other 3 losses are as a +5 seed (PC v Dayton), a +5 seed, and a +8 seed (both Nova).

Scram Dayton fan, u actually have a team in the tourney. Try to enjoy it whIle u still have Archie.

[billyjack]

If the Big East is mid major, let's see if I can make the other power conferences look mid major, too.

- The Big Ten has won but one national championship in 26 years, and none in 15 years. It includes a team that has never once been to the NCAA tournament, despite all of its teams having D1 status since the start of the NCAA championship tournament in the '30's.

- The SEC is analagous to the AAC or West Coast Conference, with Kentucky and Florida alternating the roles of UConn or Gonzaga. No other SEC team has won the national title, or even been to the title game, since 1994. The rest of the league is wildly inconsistent

- The Pac-12 has not won a national championship in 18 years and has won just two since UCLA's string of titles under Wooden ended in the mid-70's. It hasn't even had a Final Four team since 2008.

- The Big 12 has won one national title in its 19 year existence. Current members had not won other titles in their previous conference homes since '88.

- No team has made the Final Four under the ACC banner in five years. The only team to win a national title besides UNC and Duke under the ACC banner since 1983 is Maryland, which is no longer in the league. Now, we could credit the ACC for Final Fours and a national title in the past five years thanks to Louisville, but only if we apply that logic by crediting the Big East with Butler's razor-thin miss at the 2010 title and with their 2011 title appearance. On the other hand, if we don't allow Big East credit for Butler, then the Big East gets credit for Syracuse and Louisville.

All those leagues look pretty meek when looked at in such light, don't they? That's what happens when people use lazy, negative narratives.

The truth is that there is no dominant conference in college basketball. Last year the ACC had just one Sweet 16 team. This year there will be at least three. The Big 12 gets tons of bids each year but doesn't get to the Final Four much, besides KU, and almost never wins titles. The Pac-12 hasn't been to the FF since 2008 yet is still a good league. The SEC is so incredibly top-heavy it should be embarrassing. The Big Ten can't pull through in the tournament.

Honestly, what's so different about the Big East? Like the Pac-12, there has been a drought of Final Four appearances (not counting Butler's appearances), but like the Big 12, the league is very deep with a relatively small number of teams. Villanova dominated this year and just shot terribly last night. Simple as that. Butler lost an overtime game to the ACC tournament champions in an absolute nailbiter. Providence lost a toss-up game. Georgetown did, too. St. John's lost, but without their best player in the game. And Xavier is in the Sweet 16. That kind of thing happens to all good leagues.

Michael, thanks for your thoughtful post that puts things in perspective.
Really appreciate what you wrote.

[gtmoBlue]

Honestly, what's so different about the Big East? Like the Pac-12, there has been a drought of Final Four appearances (not counting Butler's appearances), but like the Big 12, the league is very deep with a relatively small number of teams. Villanova dominated this year and just shot terribly last night. Simple as that. Butler lost an overtime game to the ACC tournament champions in an absolute nailbiter. Providence lost a toss-up game. Georgetown did, too. St. John's lost, but without their best player in the game. And Xavier is in the Sweet 16. That kind of thing happens to all good leagues.

The truth is that there is no dominant conference in college basketball.

All those leagues look pretty meek when looked at in such light, don't they? That's what happens when people use lazy, negative narratives.

.

You answered your question: The media and it's' talking heads decided a couple of years ago that the Big East is not worthy.

Their negative narrative gained traction with the public - perception becomes reality to those who perpetuate the narrative and to a public that doesn't bother to look for themselves. It's easier just to accept CBS' or Espn's version of "the state of college hoops" than to investigate and form an educated/informed opinion (similar to switching on CBS/Espn rather than hunt for FS1). When such misconceptions are continually repeated and reinforced - people buy it. Once such opinion is "bought", for many such opinion becomes popular fact - replacing actual facts. Similar to other perceived popular (incorrect) notions: all "so & so's" are rich... all "such & so's" lack intelligence, but are athletic... all "so & such's" are inscrutable and can't be trusted. Popular misconceptions, opinions, beliefs which continually get reinforced and become part of common lore.

The Big East has it's work cut out for us. It will take time, effort, wins, and tourney runs to overcome this smear campaign.

[billyjack]

what schedule? Your schedule? We were told by YOUR coach that this isn't the new big east this is the Big East. So your schedule thing is just an excuse. The fact is we had 2 sweet 16 seeds, and Xavier who caught a break in getting Georgia State instead of Iowa St. Yesterday is absolutely a disappointment and if it's not a disappointment to you, than you are one of these folks who just believes in participation ribbons. There's no way if you are competitive to spin yesterday as anything but a disappointment.

And this crap that last year we got 4 teams in with horrible seeds. Yes Xavier and PC had bad seeds. Xavier was in a PIG and a team from a PIG has won a game in the rd of 32 every year. And Nova was still a 2 seed. Creighton was a 3 seed. The fact is the top teams in our conference have choked in the tourney. Period.

I've read and re-read what you wrote here 25 times.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
You're freaking out about Saturday, and you're upset that not everyone here is freaking out too.

And this has been the general themes of your posts over 2 years...
1. You freak out.
2. You move goalposts.
3. You accelerate milestones and target dates.
4. You freak out when the Big East doesn't hit your artificial goalposts, milestones and target dates.
5. You have meltdowns when the rest of us don't share in your freak-outs.

P.S. Amazingly, on the "other" site, you're actually being relatively sensible.

[stever20]

what schedule? Your schedule? We were told by YOUR coach that this isn't the new big east this is the Big East. So your schedule thing is just an excuse. The fact is we had 2 sweet 16 seeds, and Xavier who caught a break in getting Georgia State instead of Iowa St. Yesterday is absolutely a disappointment and if it's not a disappointment to you, than you are one of these folks who just believes in participation ribbons. There's no way if you are competitive to spin yesterday as anything but a disappointment.

And this crap that last year we got 4 teams in with horrible seeds. Yes Xavier and PC had bad seeds. Xavier was in a PIG and a team from a PIG has won a game in the rd of 32 every year. And Nova was still a 2 seed. Creighton was a 3 seed. The fact is the top teams in our conference have choked in the tourney. Period.

I've read and re-read what you wrote here 25 times.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
You're freaking out about Saturday, and you're upset that not everyone here is freaking out too.

This been the general themes of your posts over 2 years...
1. You freak out.
2. You move goalposts.
3. You accelerate milestones and target dates.
4. You freak out when the Big East doesn't hit your artificial goalposts, milestones and target dates.
5. You have meltdowns when the rest of us don't share in your freak-outs.

P.S. Amazingly, on the "other" site, you're actually being relatively sensible.

I just think to say like you did that we're ahead of schedule- is just a complete joke. What schedule? Look at what Ed Cooley said in October:
"I don't know why people have to call us the new Big East or the relaunched Big East,'' Providence coach Ed Cooley said. "We're the Big East.''

That's not saying there's a schedule at all....

There is absolutely no way to frame Saturday as anything but a disappointment. Why? Because if we had gone 3-1(which by seed we should have done) or gosh forbid 4-0, what would the narrative be today? The Big East is completely back. Maybe they're better than we expected. Instead, it's the Big East is who we thought they were. I'm sorry, but folks on here saying stuff like well it's just a 1 day sample size, it doesn't really matter- I just do not think that's realistic at all. Those same folks if we had gone 3-1 or 4-0, you know they would be saying stuff. It's like they want to have their cake and eat it too. It's called risk/reward.

I still think this year was a success, despite Saturday.... Just not as much of a success as we could have had.

before the season- the real question was how is the Big East compared to the AAC/A10/other non football conferences. That question was answered with an unquestionably much better. If it hadn't been, expansion would have been much hotter of a topic right now...

now the question going into the tourney was how is the Big East compared to the other P5 conferences. That question was answered with a not so good. Even there though, I'd say it's a great thing that we're being compared with those, rather than the AAC/A10/MWC/etc.

So the question has changed for us, which is good. I think that's normal. Until we start performing in the tourney that 2nd question is going to be tough for us. Which is why Saturday pretty much sucked. We had a golden chance to make a huge statement. The Nova loss hurts even more now, with UVA kicking the can. Our top teams need to perform in the tourney. We've gone 0-4 in the last 2 years with top 4 seeds making the sweet 16. Until that changes, we are going to be continuing to look for respect.

[billyjack]

what schedule? Your schedule? We were told by YOUR coach that this isn't the new big east this is the Big East. So your schedule thing is just an excuse. The fact is we had 2 sweet 16 seeds, and Xavier who caught a break in getting Georgia State instead of Iowa St. Yesterday is absolutely a disappointment and if it's not a disappointment to you, than you are one of these folks who just believes in participation ribbons. There's no way if you are competitive to spin yesterday as anything but a disappointment.

And this crap that last year we got 4 teams in with horrible seeds. Yes Xavier and PC had bad seeds. Xavier was in a PIG and a team from a PIG has won a game in the rd of 32 every year. And Nova was still a 2 seed. Creighton was a 3 seed. The fact is the top teams in our conference have choked in the tourney. Period.

I've read and re-read what you wrote here 25 times.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
You're freaking out about Saturday, and you're upset that not everyone here is freaking out too.

This been the general themes of your posts over 2 years...
1. You freak out.
2. You move goalposts.
3. You accelerate milestones and target dates.
4. You freak out when the Big East doesn't hit your artificial goalposts, milestones and target dates.
5. You have meltdowns when the rest of us don't share in your freak-outs.

P.S. Amazingly, on the "other" site, you're actually being relatively sensible.

I just think to say like you did that we're ahead of schedule- is just a complete joke. What schedule? Look at what Ed Cooley said in October:
"I don't know why people have to call us the new Big East or the relaunched Big East,'' Providence coach Ed Cooley said. "We're the Big East.''

That's not saying there's a schedule at all....

There is absolutely no way to frame Saturday as anything but a disappointment. Why? Because if we had gone 3-1(which by seed we should have done) or gosh forbid 4-0, what would the narrative be today? The Big East is completely back. Maybe they're better than we expected. Instead, it's the Big East is who we thought they were. I'm sorry, but folks on here saying stuff like well it's just a 1 day sample size, it doesn't really matter- I just do not think that's realistic at all. Those same folks if we had gone 3-1 or 4-0, you know they would be saying stuff. It's like they want to have their cake and eat it too. It's called risk/reward.

I still think this year was a success, despite Saturday.... Just not as much of a success as we could have had.

before the season- the real question was how is the Big East compared to the AAC/A10/other non football conferences. That question was answered with an unquestionably much better. If it hadn't been, expansion would have been much hotter of a topic right now...

now the question going into the tourney was how is the Big East compared to the other P5 conferences. That question was answered with a not so good. Even there though, I'd say it's a great thing that we're being compared with those, rather than the AAC/A10/MWC/etc.

So the question has changed for us, which is good. I think that's normal. Until we start performing in the tourney that 2nd question is going to be tough for us. Which is why Saturday pretty much sucked. We had a golden chance to make a huge statement. The Nova loss hurts even more now, with UVA kicking the can. Our top teams need to perform in the tourney. We've gone 0-4 in the last 2 years with top 4 seeds making the sweet 16. Until that changes, we are going to be continuing to look for respect.

"Missed opportunity". That's what Saturday was.
"Disappointment", semantics-wise, is not the most accurate word, because it implies sadness and sulking and self-flagellation.

Ok, the part of your quote that I highlighted is the part that I agree with... with the exception that 5-5 in NCAA play isn't a disaster (also, amazingly, I've noticed even after Saturday that comments around the web from traditional critics has been surprisingly supportive and positive about the BE... this might be a result of each of our wins being by comfortable margins, and each of our losses being hard fought competitive games...):

I agree with you on this, and I think I've said this a number of times:


Good Quote from Stever:
"I still think this year was a success, despite Saturday.... Just not as much of a success as we could have had.

before the season- the real question was how is the Big East compared to the AAC/A10/other non football conferences. That question was answered with an unquestionably much better. If it hadn't been, expansion would have been much hotter of a topic right now...

now the question going into the tourney was how is the Big East compared to the other P5 conferences. That question was answered with a not so good. Even there though, I'd say it's a great thing that we're being compared with those, rather than the AAC/A10/MWC/etc."

[stever20]

I think where one could say it's a disappointment in going 5-5 is that we started out 4-0, and looked like we had 3/6 games where we were favored in the next 2 days- the PC game on Friday, and then the Nova/Xavier games on Saturday. The PC/Oklahoma game would have been close to a tossup on Sunday I think then as well(and after watching some of that game, I think PC beats Oklahoma probably pretty easily quite frankly). It's disappointing because we were right there....

[Michael in Raleigh]

If the Big East is mid major, let's see if I can make the other power conferences look mid major, too.

- The Big Ten has won but one national championship in 26 years, and none in 15 years. It includes a team that has never once been to the NCAA tournament, despite all of its teams having D1 status since the start of the NCAA championship tournament in the '30's.

- The SEC is analagous to the AAC or West Coast Conference, with Kentucky and Florida alternating the roles of UConn or Gonzaga. No other SEC team has won the national title, or even been to the title game, since 1994. The rest of the league is wildly inconsistent

- The Pac-12 has not won a national championship in 18 years and has won just two since UCLA's string of titles under Wooden ended in the mid-70's. It hasn't even had a Final Four team since 2008.

- The Big 12 has won one national title in its 19 year existence. Current members had not won other titles in their previous conference homes since '88.

- No team has made the Final Four under the ACC banner in five years. The only team to win a national title besides UNC and Duke under the ACC banner since 1983 is Maryland, which is no longer in the league. Now, we could credit the ACC for Final Fours and a national title in the past five years thanks to Louisville, but only if we apply that logic by crediting the Big East with Butler's razor-thin miss at the 2010 title and with their 2011 title appearance. On the other hand, if we don't allow Big East credit for Butler, then the Big East gets credit for Syracuse and Louisville.

All those leagues look pretty meek when looked at in such light, don't they? That's what happens when people use lazy, negative narratives.

The truth is that there is no dominant conference in college basketball. Last year the ACC had just one Sweet 16 team. This year there will be at least three. The Big 12 gets tons of bids each year but doesn't get to the Final Four much, besides KU, and almost never wins titles. The Pac-12 hasn't been to the FF since 2008 yet is still a good league. The SEC is so incredibly top-heavy it should be embarrassing. The Big Ten can't pull through in the tournament.

Honestly, what's so different about the Big East? Like the Pac-12, there has been a drought of Final Four appearances (not counting Butler's appearances), but like the Big 12, the league is very deep with a relatively small number of teams. Villanova dominated this year and just shot terribly last night. Simple as that. Butler lost an overtime game to the ACC tournament champions in an absolute nailbiter. Providence lost a toss-up game. Georgetown did, too. St. John's lost, but without their best player in the game. And Xavier is in the Sweet 16. That kind of thing happens to all good leagues.

Michael, thanks for your thoughtful post that puts things in perspective.
Really appreciate what you wrote.

Thank you, billyjack. Perspective is key. Villanova and Butler were a combined eight points from victories, which have netted three Big East teams in the Sweet 16.

I just think it can be wasteful to get overly upset when people in the media use lazy, simplistic, ill-informed narratives that lack context.

Truth be told, I think the Big East has a few problems, but, for lack a better way of putting it, they are very much "first world" problems.

- The league badly needs Fox to continue promoting FS1 on "Big Fox" (i.e., over the air, network Fox). It needs Fox to work with the cable companies, doing whatever it takes, to get FS1 (a) on basic, not just digital or sports tier, cable. I have the most basic of cable packages because that's all I'm willing to pay, considering I have a 4-month-old, a job, and classes I'm taking. There are lots of people like me, and the trend is to scale back if not eliminate cable, so being available only on the higher-end packages will only cause continued poor ratings for all FS1 programming, not just Big East games. The league also needs to get FS1 (b) to be an easy to find channel, preferably close to ESPN. People are creatures of habit. They get accustomed to flipping to the same half-dozen to a dozen channels and rarely stray from those. Here, ESPN is channel 31 and ESPN2 is 32. FS1 needs to be 30 or 33 to maximize viewership in my market. Or in digital packages, it needs to be right next to ESPN; if ESPN is 731 and ESPN2 is 732, FS1 needs to be right in that range. It isn't working be clumped in with the BTN, Golf Channel, NBA League Pass channels, NFL Network, etc. Saying people are "lazy" not to flip over FS1 doesn't help; watching television is a leisure, consumer activity, and people are allowed to be lazy in those activities. It's Fox that needs to accommodate for potential new viewers, not the other way around.

- The only other "problem" is one that may actually be tied to its current lack of exposure (and by exposure, I don't just mean the existence of games on FS1; I mean the exposure of those games to large numbers of eyeballs): the need for more NBA-level talent. This, to me, is the only big difference between on-the-court for upper-end Big East teams and upper-end teams from other leagues. Someone will have to beat Coach K or Bill Self or Calipari or Pitino in some recruiting battles for those future lottery picks, and do it often.

That said, it's not as though the league has had bad recruiting. It's not as though the on-the-court productivity has been bad at all. I'm just saying this may be the one missing link for producing on-the-court elite teams that go deep in the tournament.

More importantly, these problems are so small when you step back and look at how incredibly healthy the league is. The league got 6 out of freaking 10 teams in the tournament! Whatever lack of viewership there is, it sure isn't hurting performance on the court. Teams that were fairly down before the 2013 separation from the football schools (Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence) are rising, and the three newest members have all made the tournament at least once each, with one of them making the Sweet 16. Its league tournament is practically the college basketball equivalent of the Rose Bowl, and like the Rose Bowl, everyone who's not tied to it is trying like crazy to get in on the action.

Furthermore, the Big East now has membership stability on par with the SEC, the Pac-12, the Big Ten, and the Ivy League. Not even the ACC or Big 12 can say that. Nobody is leaving the league now, although many want in. There's no reason for anyone's eyes to wander anymore. That stability gives this league power. Contrary to what ESPN talking heads may say, the Big East can withstand some amount of droughts in the Final Four because it is now on a rock-solid foundation