2015 BE Tourney - 2 Wednesday Games...

[taa71458]

I doubt Gus did all that much prep work. Can't really get too deep when you have the two play in games.

Well he mentioned officiating has been spot on in the Big East this year so he clearly did not do much prep work at all.

[stever20]

I doubt Gus did all that much prep work. Can't really get too deep when you have the two play in games.

Well he mentioned officiating has been spot on in the Big East this year so he clearly did not do much prep work at all.

In both games he mentioned it.

[DudeAnon]

I know its the nature of conference tournaments, but it really sucks that Creighton v DePaul get a night game while St. Johns vs Providence gets an afternoon game.

[hoyahooligan]

I doubt Gus did all that much prep work. Can't really get too deep when you have the two play in games.

Well he mentioned officiating has been spot on in the Big East this year so he clearly did not do much prep work at all.

Yeah he said it at least twice. I think every BE fan did a spit take at that. I'd say he had never watched a BE game this season, but that clearly isn't true. Maybe Val had him say it?

[dmac80]

The win is counted baed in how each team they beat tends at the end of the season right? Like someone who beat Seton Hall when they were ranked, do they get credit for a top 25 win or only a top 100 win since SHU finished 93?

Just end of season. So it'd just be a top 100 win.

Similarly if a team was when you played them #108 and now they're #86, that also counts as a top 100 win.

But what a lot of people don't appreciate is how in-depth the Selection Committee goes. Each conference has three Committee members following it and they give weekly reports throughout the season. The ones covering the Big East are well-aware of how good Seton Hall was and how far they fell, and they would relay that information to the rest of the Committee when it comes to games played before the meltdown.

The Committee really knows more about the basketball landscape than the media supposedly charged with covering it, which is part of the reason why Jay Bilas' call for "basketball people" on the Committee is so laughable (the other part of the reason is simply that he's an arrogant was). The example I always like is Oregon State this season. They might not even be in the top 100, but they've only lost two games at home, to Utah and Oregon, while beating some good teams. Because the Pac-12 Committee members know that and will relay the info, Utah and Oregon will get a lot more credit for beating Oregon State than one would expect and others won't be as hurt by the loss for the same reason.

Very cool thanks for the info.

[XUFan09]

But what a lot of people don't appreciate is how in-depth the Selection Committee goes. Each conference has three Committee members following it and they give weekly reports throughout the season. The ones covering the Big East are well-aware of how good Seton Hall was and how far they fell, and they would relay that information to the rest of the Committee when it comes to games played before the meltdown.

The Committee really knows more about the basketball landscape than the media supposedly charged with covering it, which is part of the reason why Jay Bilas' call for "basketball people" on the Committee is so laughable (the other part of the reason is simply that he's an arrogant was). The example I always like is Oregon State this season. They might not even be in the top 100, but they've only lost two games at home, to Utah and Oregon, while beating some good teams. Because the Pac-12 Committee members know that and will relay the info, Utah and Oregon will get a lot more credit for beating Oregon State than one would expect and others won't be as hurt by the loss for the same reason.

What I'm talking about though are the things like records vs top 100 teams that you see quoted all the time. That's something that is really static. Prime Example right now is Long Beach St. They are 102. So right now they count as a sub 100 win and a sub 100 loss for Xavier. Not helpful at all. Now, if they can get up 2 spots, they become a top 100 win, and a sub 100 loss comes off the board. When you are splitting hairs, that becomes huge.

Also for Seton Hall- a lot of their slide had to do with playing the meat of their schedule. They had a 7 game stretch with playing 6 NCAA tourney teams. That's not a meltdown, that's just playing tougher teams.

You do realize Oregon St is 16-14 against the 101st best schedule? They aren't even close to being in the top 100 and no teams won't be overly rewarded for beating them there or others hurt less for losing to them.

It would be nice if LBSU moved into the top 100 for that reason, but it's not that significant as an individual data point. Either way, the Committee knows that Xavier both beat and lost to a borderline top 100 team. When it comes time to split hairs, the Committee still will rely more on subjective analysis than those numbers. Completely unimportant? Hell no, but not a huge deal either. It would obviously be more important if Xavier was one of the last bubble teams and thus potentially subject to the blind resume evaluation.

It's not like Seton Hall was facing a bunch of chumps in conference before that slide. The Big East is deep and Seton Hall actually had played 6 of their 12 games against the tournament teams already. I didn't think they were going to do enough in the second half of the season to make the tournament, but there's no way they finish anywhere close to 1-9 without it being heavily influenced by the chemistry issues that emerged.

I do realize Oregon State isn't good. That's the very point. They are a bad team overall, yet they have only lost twice at home. If you only look at the Pac-12 schedule, they are 7-2 at home and 1-8 on the road. That's a crazy disparity, indicative of a homecourt hero. To emphasize the point, specifically against the RPI top 55 in conference, they are 3-2 at home and 0-5 on the road (that includes a home win over Arizona). They're a bad team overall; that much is obvious. But, they are a bad team who is still fairly tough to beat at home. Will they be treated like a top 25 road win or loss? No, it's not that extreme. At the same time, they won't be treated like their RPI ranking of 128 when it comes to their home games. As a comparison, Creighton is close to Oregon State in the RPI rankings but in conference they are 2-7 at home. Clearly the two bad teams are on different levels in their ability to defend homecourt.

That's the type of subjective analysis that factors into the Selection Committee's decisions. When bracketologists are confused over some of the seeding decisions, it is quite frequently because people are applying an objective numerical analysis to what has been determined in part through highly subjective means. I'm not saying that numbers just get thrown out the window after a superficial glance, but it's not solely based on the numbers. For example, say LBSU goes on a run in their conference tournament and ends up at RPI 98. They would then contribute to the top 100 record, along with Seton Hall, who would only be 4 spots ahead of them in the RPI rankings. Xavier split with both teams, so on the surface they would matter the same to the resume. That's notable but not highly significant. When further analysis occurs, Xavier owns home wins over both of them, but the Committee knows that "one of these things is not like the other." The Musketeers would get a lot more credit for beating Seton Hall at home than for beating Long Beach State at home, despite the similar RPI rankings (I didn't want to compare the other games, since one was on a neutral court and the other was away).

[stever20]

The thing is for Seton Hall- 4 of those losses they had were @ Providence, Nova, St John's, and Georgetown. Slide or not, was going to be tough to win any of those games. 2 home games with Georgetown and Providence- top 25 teams.

I think in a way what hurts them even more now is the Marquette drubbing. It makes the loss they took in early Feb seem less like a fluke and more like Marquette is just better than they are. Really makes then the only game in the 1-9 ending slide that is questionable is the DePaul game- and that was the first game that started the slide.

Also regarding Oregon St. against RPI top 55 in conference they are 2-2, not 3-2. They never played Stanford at home. On the road they are 0-4, having never played Utah on the road. 8 of Oregon St's 14 home wins- teams RPI 159 or worse. Only 4 against RPI top 100 teams(2 of them being UCSB at 82 and Arizona St at 97)

It's just huge though when you are getting down to it the difference between someone being 99 and 101. Or 50 and 51. Let's take LSU right now. They are 5-2 vs the RPI top 50. Looks great. But let's say Ole Miss loses and falls out of the top 50. Now they are only 3-2. When you are dealing with a limited amount of time, that could make a huge difference. They are looking at a number of teams and the data matters.

[XUFan09]

The thing is for Seton Hall- 4 of those losses they had were @ Providence, Nova, St John's, and Georgetown. Slide or not, was going to be tough to win any of those games. 2 home games with Georgetown and Providence- top 25 teams.

I think in a way what hurts them even more now is the Marquette drubbing. It makes the loss they took in early Feb seem less like a fluke and more like Marquette is just better than they are. Really makes then the only game in the 1-9 ending slide that is questionable is the DePaul game- and that was the first game that started the slide.

Also regarding Oregon St. against RPI top 55 in conference they are 2-2, not 3-2. They never played Stanford at home. On the road they are 0-4, having never played Utah on the road. 8 of Oregon St's 14 home wins- teams RPI 159 or worse. Only 4 against RPI top 100 teams(2 of them being UCSB at 82 and Arizona St at 97)

It's just huge though when you are getting down to it the difference between someone being 99 and 101. Or 50 and 51. Let's take LSU right now. They are 5-2 vs the RPI top 50. Looks great. But let's say Ole Miss loses and falls out of the top 50. Now they are only 3-2. When you are dealing with a limited amount of time, that could make a huge difference. They are looking at a number of teams and the data matters.

Thanks for the catch, misread that.

I don't disagree that Seton Hall was probably going to slide, but even a frequent underdog does better than 1-9 in normal situations. I also don't understand what they're recent drubbing really adds to the equation. So a team that has fallen apart lost another game badly? Was anyone really surprised? It could have been Creighton (the only team they beat down the stretch), and I still wouldn't have been surprised.

The thing with the numbers is that the Selection Committee is well-aware of the arbitrary nature of these cut-offs and account for that by discussing the specifics. I understand the point about a limited amount of time, but that's partly why the Committee members have a conference meeting every single week. Each member gives a report on the conferences he or she covers, including the specifics like "Oregon State is really holding up well at home," "Seton Hall seems to be having some locker-room issues right now with Isaiah Whitehead back," "Xavier seems to be overcoming their road woes to a degree." These conversations happen every week, not just int he last few days leading up to Selection Sunday. The Committee members have a solid idea of all the potential at-large teams heading into the last week because of that regular flow of information.