Val bursts into your office, WE HAVE TO CHOOSE TODAY!

[indienapolis]

To protect and grow the Big East brand I think that the focus should be on basketball success over all else. Its been said on here, but while TV markets are important, nearly all of the existing BE members are in big cities and are second, third, and fourth tier sports viewing options. Its not a slam on any team, its just a fact. Therefore I don't see the huge value of adding a potentially middling team simply because they are in, say, the St. Louis market. We need more bids to the tourney to increase viewership not just more teams. Likewise, I don't place as high a value on the team being from a small private school either. We want on court success and no football team to compete with, thats it.

My vote is VCU and/or Wichita State. There are people here who can probably rightfully cast doubt on these teams sustained success, I'm not as steeped in statistics and history of these schools as others might be, but I just can't believe that people here really think that Dayton, SLU, or Davidson are better pick-ups for our basketball centric league.

Side notes: 11 team round-robin is what I'd want, but 12 team expansion is what Fox would probably want. And yes, I think Gonzaga is too far away or they'd be an obvious pick.

[HoosierPal]

Does anyone know what Gonzaga's current TV financial $$ haul is? And what are they pulling in from the NCAA tourney units?

[marquette]

I have a couple of issues with Gonzaga that might be a little different than some. First of all, their arena, while constantly packed, is tiny by Big East standards It seats just under 2/3 of Butler's arena, which is our current smallest. It was opened in 2004 so I doubt they are open to replacing it any time soon. Why is this a problem? Because we play with the big boys and attendance is one metric used to measure interest in our league. I have the same issue with VCU/UR (side note: when did they stop being a candidate?). Both could be remedied by playing off-campus since their cities have arenas that hold more than 10,000, but are they willing to do this?

Second, students. The reason a league like the Big East is interested in market size is not the same as the B1G's. They have a tv channel to sell. We are interested in large markets to gain exposure and recruit students, something becoming increasingly more difficult for expensive private schools to do. The further out we go, the less likely high school kids are to want to visit our campuses, even with good name recognition. This works poorly for us and for Gonzaga.

Third, fans. Gonzaga enjoys very strong fan support...in Washington. Do they travel well? Will they come out to MSG for our tournament? After getting a large number of teams in the NCAA tourney the conference tourney is our top priority. We need it to be successful. Additionally, while their administration is seemingly on board with a move to the BE (per a statement made over a year ago, before the numbers were crunched) when the question is posited to their fans on their own board they have a generally negative reaction. This is a knock against SLU too, since they don't appear to travel particularly well, but SLU gives us plenty of other advantages. I believe UD and VCU are probably the best traveling fan-bases that we can pick up.

Finally, rivalries. The lifeblood of college sports. The two elements necessary for a good rivalry? Time and proximity (both teams being good helps too, but it is more a benefit for casual fan interest). Marquette/Wisconsin, Xavier/UC, The Philly Big 5, Georgetown/Syracuse, Duke/NC, Auburn/Alabama-the list is extensive. Proximity+familiarity. When you see their fans at your game it gets your blood boiling. Likewise, when you invade their house and make noise while your team steals one on their court it is the stuff of amazing college memories. We will never have this with Gonzaga.

My choices today would be SLU and Dayton. I have a really hard time not putting VCU in there, but I don't think we are ready for a public school just yet. However, once we hit 12 there's no reason not to look at 14 in 10 years. Leverage it for the next tv contract. Maybe the VCU/UR rivalry becomes can't-miss tv. Maybe UConn becomes available (unlikely, I know). The only thing I know is that with UD/SLU we have 12 like-minded institutions committed to basketball, located in desirable recruiting areas (both basketball and general students), close enough to build rivalries, and with similar academic missions. If Val is in my office demanding my choices right now, that's what I do. Reevaluate in 10 years, when the tv contract is coming up.

EDIT: Wichita state is a non-starter for me. Small public school (15,000), poor academics, out of our current footprint.

[indienapolis]

EDIT: Wichita state is a non-starter for me. Small public school (15,000), poor academics, out of our current footprint.

But a natural rival to Creighton, no? And not out of a geographical footprint that includes Creighton. Size and academics are valid points, but even being a small public school, its twice as big as Butler.

Maybe I'm too attracted to their current successes, but I just don't think trying to match the profile of small, private, or Catholic should really matter as much as some people here think. We're trying to build the brand of a basketball league not throw a debutante ball.

PS I agree with your points about Gonzaga, and "do their fans travel well?" is probably a concern for Wichita State outside of the Midwest.

[R Jay]

Let me make this clear, you don't want to have anything to do with Wichita... It's just like Dayton in terms of fans, but worse.

[Hall2012]

None of the above. Given the conferences these teams play in, the only one that has shown enough sustained success to warrant inclusion in the Big East based on performance alone is Gonzaga. And quite frankly, none of the others are even close. That eliminates both WSU and VCU for me because they aren't good institutional fits either. I think it's important for this conference to establish and maintain an identity. We're doing that with all private schools, I'm against adding any public research universities.

Unfortunately, although Gonzaga is far and away the best program of the group, I agree with pretty much all of Marquette's concerns, so I'd rule them out too.

That leaves St. Louis and Dayton, great! Nope, sorry. There's only room for 1 of them, max, unless the Big East decides to expand beyond 12. I believe that for every MidWest school added to the league, an East Coast school should be added with them to keep the balance. I wouldn't label them as the only 2 Midwest candidates either. Like I said, their resumes over the past decade or so aren't exactly overwhelming.

With no standouts performance wise(aside from too far away Gonzaga), I would largely rule out past success as a criteria and look for two good institutional fits (1 East Coast, 1 Midwest) that are willing to greatly increase their investments in their athletics (specifically men's basketball) programs and offer something significant to the league.

Of course, my real preference is still to stay at 10.

[Hall2012]

Also, I'm just looking at these school's logos and I'm sorry, I just can't picture any of them up on the MSG video boards during championship week.

[GoldenWarrior11]

From all of the available candidates - ranging from Saint Louis down to Davidson - none have all of the credentials that cover what the league wants: a new/big media market, top-level basketball program (non-football school), history of being successful in NCAA tournament, private institution. Most candidates have two, maybe three, of the four down. None have all four. Creighton, Xavier and Butler had all the qualifications when they were chosen to re-start the league.

I'm just surprised because, if I'm an President/AD of one of the mentioned candidates, I'm doing everything I can to boost basketball program for shot at moving up conferences. Schools are doing it for football and the P5. If you don't have football, why not join the arms race for basketball (Big East/A-10/MVC/Horizon)?

[marquette]

EDIT: Wichita state is a non-starter for me. Small public school (15,000), poor academics, out of our current footprint.

But a natural rival to Creighton, no? And not out of a geographical footprint that includes Creighton. Size and academics are valid points, but even being a small public school, its twice as big as Butler.

Maybe I'm too attracted to their current successes, but I just don't think trying to match the profile of small, private, or Catholic should really matter as much as some people here think. We're trying to build the brand of a basketball league not throw a debutante ball.

PS I agree with your points about Gonzaga, and "do their fans travel well?" is probably a concern for Wichita State outside of the Midwest.

It's true that they are more than triple the size of Butler, but Butler presents several advantages the Wichita State does not. Larger market, better academics, closer to NY, in the current footprint, back-to-back national championship games, solid facilities, and is a like-minded institution.

In regards to the footprint and Creighton, yes I'll give you that they aren't really much further than Omaha.

The small/private thing is more of the presidents trying to make a brand than anything. We want to be the B1G of private schools. If our schools can coordinate in the same way that the B1G schools do, it helps everyone's academic reputation. It isn't so much throwing a debutante ball as it is working with peer institutions. I think this is one thing VCU can do to improve their profile in the eyes of the presidents. They are similarly ranked to Seton Hall or St. John's, but in SH's case they are making an effort to up their academic standing by doing things like starting a new medical school. Marquette is opening a new sports science research facility in conjunction with the Milwaukee Bucks. These kinds of things attract research dollars and up your academic profile. St. John's is a little different because they have a different mission than other schools, besides they're already in the club. Yes, basketball is our face but academics are our substance. We are, after all, a collection of schools.

I think Wichita is a solid basketball addition, I just don't think they bring enough off the court to make it worth it. When they are in DePaul territory are they still a value add for the conference? Speaking as someone at an institution that is looking up at DePaul this year, I'm happy we have lots of other qualities to bring to the table.

[yeti47]

Let me make this clear, you don't want to have anything to do with Wichita... It's just like Dayton in terms of fans, but worse.

Again. Jays rivalry. Hated rival. Perfect. I love their hatred