Val bursts into your office, WE HAVE TO CHOOSE TODAY!

[pki1998]

Wait for the football fantasy to run its course and nab UConn and Temple. Yes Nova fans, Temple. That would make us must see TV in Philly with the top two programs in the town and add a big state school. Sooner or later we are going to need a ratings bump and I think those two schools would do it.

Either that or sprinkle steroids on the Duquesne program to get some TV coverage in a historic Big East city.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Same reason X wouldn't want Dayton or Cincy. Same reason Gtwn doesn't want GW or VCU (to a lesser degree), same reason PC doesn't want URI, same reason SJU wouldn't want Fordham. If VNova said they didn't want Temple in the BE, would Creighton and any other team say "sorry, but Temple is who we want" or would they stand by their conference brethren, who has been very instrumental in this league having the cred that it has. If XU didn't want Cincy or Dayton, I know that would be enough for me. We don't need two teams in one market. No, no, no to Temple. Ever... Not kidding.

Fordham???? I'm pretty sure St. John's doesn't want Fordham for the same reason everyone else in the league doesn't want Fordham, they have been the bottom feeders of the a-10 for close to twenty years.

[Xudash]

Wait for the football fantasy to run its course and nab UConn and Temple. Yes Nova fans, Temple. That would make us must see TV in Philly with the top two programs in the town and add a big state school. Sooner or later we are going to need a ratings bump and I think those two schools would do it.

Either that or sprinkle steroids on the Duquesne program to get some TV coverage in a historic Big East city.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Same reason X wouldn't want Dayton or Cincy. Same reason Gtwn doesn't want GW or VCU (to a lesser degree), same reason PC doesn't want URI, same reason SJU wouldn't want Fordham. If VNova said they didn't want Temple in the BE, would Creighton and any other team say "sorry, but Temple is who we want" or would they stand by their conference brethren, who has been very instrumental in this league having the cred that it has. If XU didn't want Cincy or Dayton, I know that would be enough for me. We don't need two teams in one market. No, no, no to Temple. Ever... Not kidding.

I agree that the Big East doesn't need a 2nd team in the Philly market because Villanova is that big. But there are markets where a 2nd team could improve market penetration. I think that Cincinnati-Dayton is one of those markets. (Admittedly speaking as an outsider to that market.)

BC, for example, would benefit tremendously from having UConn in the ACC. They foolishly oppose their addition. They continue to decline despite supposedly having "eliminated competition" in the New England market. (Speaking as an insider to this market.)

Bill,

I'm sorry, but you are absolutely speaking as an outsider when it comes to the Ohio TV marketplace; your premise doesn't cut it when it comes to television in that corner of Ohio. I'm not just saying this because I'm a Xavier fan, but you're technically off because the Cincinnati television market is separate and distinct from the Dayton television market. Secondly, the Cincinnati area is a UC, Xavier, UK oriented area. Dayton doesn't register in Cincinnati. UD fans will push that UD is big in the Dayton market, and when it comes to the Dayton market being significant to what the Big East wants to achieve, well, I'll leave that for you to arrive at your own conclusion about that one.

Gumby is absolutely correct: we don't need two teams in one market. That was a HUGE problem for the A10, especially when it came to Philly of all places, because the A10 was dumb enough to stack three programs in Philadelphia when it brought LaSalle into it (Temple, St. Joe's and LaSalle). The three of them found it rough sledding against Nova back then. And, as previously mentioned, you can't drag comparisons to large state schools into this discussion for comparison purposes.

I get the idea of going after a couple of strategic large state schools for fan support purposes, but they have to be the right schools. I remember Xavier going into Philly to play Temple and Temple couldn't sell out its place - that was under Chaney. If it's to be expansion and large state schools is thought to be the way to go, then that to me means football schools like UCONN that can really move the needle; especially UCONN given its proximity to NY.

Otherwise, bring on Gonzaga, because the additions, if they are to occur, truly have to move the needle. And now we're back to that dilemma. Now that we're back there, I'll again submit that we're only 2 years into a 12 year deal - - we have time to see how things play out - especially with the football schools, because the schools we might want are looking at a chessboard that lacks a lot of options at this point.

[RDinNY]

I hate expansion talk because I love the round robin that we have now. Nonetheless, Wichita State and VCU would be the best two additions.

[GibsoniaPA]

I support Dayton being eventually added. No, I am not a Dayton alumni, no one in my family is, I know no one who attended. I have once visited the campus-quite a pretty one at that. I'm just a 60 year old fan of the game.

1. Dayton has played BB since 1900. Dayton does have national recognition, having been a power back in the 1950's when the NIT was the more prestigious tournament. They've hosted more NCAA tournament games than any venue in the US.

Their current team is quite fun to watch and has received much national attention with 6 scholarship players and a walk on about to become a tournament team. Their E8 success from last year can't stand alone, but if they string some success together how can you not at least consider them?

2. The vitriol from XUDash and other X fans is very telling. Even in a light hearted hypothetical string like this they can't even stomach the thought of UD having the unmitigated gall to enter their new league. Frankly that's a selling point to get Dayton in there. The BE seems to me to be a league in need of fan bases that just don't like each other and would gladly make a road trip to show it. They've played each other 168 times.

IMHO the league is not going to grow to new heights by solely adding a presence in St Louis, or Richmond (not to discount them as unworthy). My point is they need to reel in the casual national fan, and having natural hated rivalries is far more effective. I don't watch the Packers play the Bears because I give a hoot about either team. I find the rivalry interesting and enjoy the players playing their asses off.

Sorry for the long post. I think the BE has a nice thing going now with 10. But just wanted to provide my 2 cents. I'll shut up now and let the X fans have the last word.

[Xudash]

I support Dayton being eventually added. No, I am not a Dayton alumni, no one in my family, I know no one who is. I have once visited the campus-quite a pretty one at that. Just a 60 year old fan of the game.

1. They've played BB since 1900. Dayton does have national recognition, having been a power back in the 1950's when the NIT was the more prestigious tournament. They've hosted more NCAA tournament games than any venue in the US. Their current team is quite fun to watch with 6 scholarship players and a walk on about to become a tournament tam. Their E8 success from last year can't stand alone, but if they string some success together how can you not at least consider them?

2. The vitriol from XUDash and other X fans is very telling. Even in a light hearted hypothetical string like this they can't even stomach the thought of UD having the unmitigated gall to enter their new league. Frankly that's a selling point to get Dayton in there. The BE seems to me to be a league in need of fan bases that just don't like each other and would gladly make a road trip to show it. They've played each other 168 times.

IMHO the league is not going to grow to new heights by solely adding a presence in St Louis, or Richmond (not to discount them as worthy). My point is they need to reel in the casual national fan, and having natural hated rivalries is far more effective. I don't watch the Packers play the Bears because I give a hoot about either team. I find the rivalry interesting and enjoy the players playing their asses off.

Sorry for the long post. I think the BE has a nice thing going now with 10. But just wanted to provide my 2 cents. I'll shut up now and let the X fans have the last word.

It's appropriate that you acknowledge that X fans should have the last word, at least on this aspect of this topic. Even though Xavier beat Dayton to win the 1958 NIT, I'm not willing to submit that current day fans are going to view such old history as being relevant, and most of UD's history is old to most fans today, including history that reaches back to the late 70's. Otherwise, as much as it seems to stimulate the imagination of Dayton fans, I doubt the league office for the Big East takes note of the number of NCAA Tournament games that UD hosts.

My "vitriol" about UD mostly is about a fan base that thinks its basketball program "deserves" to be in the Big East when it doesn't. I'm not worried about UD competitively, as Xavier dominated UD over the past 20 or so years when we played them. My concern is for the Big East in terms of its composition: holding to 10 teams for a while longer, at least, is absolutely the right thing to do - the Big East has time to see how the current configuration plays out. I don't think your point about establishing heated rivalries is flawed, but I suspect equating or comparing the effect of such rivalries for the NFL to that effect for college basketball simply loses a lot in translation for me. The casual basketball may watch Duke v. UNC, but I doubt that X v. UD is going to reel them in.

Again, having noted before that I am a Xavier fan, my response to Bill was not about "vitriol" for UD, but about the fact that UD does not make sense because of its television market. UD and that market will not move the needle in general, and certainly won't move it sufficiently for the Fox television agreement.

This is going to be about no expansion at all or waiting to move on expansion when some not currently apparent opportunity arises. That suggests some movement in football that opens up opportunities for the BE in basketball. That may or may not happen, but, given that there are no obvious candidates out there now, holding at 10 is the obvious way to go for now.

[BEwannabe]

Xudash - you're a hater, sorry about that but that's the reality. UD is a great school as is XU, but your hatred

of UD is really scary and you should really seek some help.

[Bill Marsh]

Nope. Nope. Nope. Same reason X wouldn't want Dayton or Cincy. Same reason Gtwn doesn't want GW or VCU (to a lesser degree), same reason PC doesn't want URI, same reason SJU wouldn't want Fordham. If VNova said they didn't want Temple in the BE, would Creighton and any other team say "sorry, but Temple is who we want" or would they stand by their conference brethren, who has been very instrumental in this league having the cred that it has. If XU didn't want Cincy or Dayton, I know that would be enough for me. We don't need two teams in one market. No, no, no to Temple. Ever... Not kidding.

I agree that the Big East doesn't need a 2nd team in the Philly market because Villanova is that big. But there are markets where a 2nd team could improve market penetration. I think that Cincinnati-Dayton is one of those markets. (Admittedly speaking as an outsider to that market.)

BC, for example, would benefit tremendously from having UConn in the ACC. They foolishly oppose their addition. They continue to decline despite supposedly having "eliminated competition" in the New England market. (Speaking as an insider to this market.)

Bill,

I'm sorry, but you are absolutely speaking as an outsider when it comes to the Ohio TV marketplace; your premise doesn't cut it when it comes to television in that corner of Ohio. I'm not just saying this because I'm a Xavier fan, but you're technically off because the Cincinnati television market is separate and distinct from the Dayton television market. Secondly, the Cincinnati area is a UC, Xavier, UK oriented area. Dayton doesn't register in Cincinnati. UD fans will push that UD is big in the Dayton market, and when it comes to the Dayton market being significant to what the Big East wants to achieve, well, I'll leave that for you to arrive at your own conclusion about that one.

Gumby is absolutely correct: we don't need two teams in one market. That was a HUGE problem for the A10, especially when it came to Philly of all places, because the A10 was dumb enough to stack three programs in Philadelphia when it brought LaSalle into it (Temple, St. Joe's and LaSalle). The three of them found it rough sledding against Nova back then. And, as previously mentioned, you can't drag comparisons to large state schools into this discussion for comparison purposes.

I get the idea of going after a couple of strategic large state schools for fan support purposes, but they have to be the right schools. I remember Xavier going into Philly to play Temple and Temple couldn't sell out its place - that was under Chaney. If it's to be expansion and large state schools is thought to be the way to go, then that to me means football schools like UCONN that can really move the needle; especially UCONN given its proximity to NY.

Otherwise, bring on Gonzaga, because the additions, if they are to occur, truly have to move the needle. And now we're back to that dilemma. Now that we're back there, I'll again submit that we're only 2 years into a 12 year deal - - we have time to see how things play out - especially with the football schools, because the schools we might want are looking at a chessboard that lacks a lot of options at this point.

XU, help me out here. Are Cincinnati and Dayton schools that draw there strident bodies primarily from the local communities? And do those graduates then stay in the local areas? If they're like most private schools, I assume not.

So, while selling tickets is a task within the local area, drawing TV ratings casts a wider net. Xavier has to battle The Ohio State and Cincinnati for those TV eyeballs, not just in Cincinnati but throughout Ohio, Kentucky, and the rest of the Big East footprint. Ohio is a big state. It. Seems to me to be worth the effort to grab as much of that market as possible. Doubling the number of potential viewers with a second member rather than sticking with just one school seems to me to raise the profile of the conference in the broader market. Dayton has one of the highest attendance levels in the country year in and year out. That's a strong fan base. Their attendance is almost double what St Louis draws this year for example. This isn't the case of Temple being unable to sell out its arena.

BTW, you contradicted yourself when you said that Cincy and Dayton are separate markets but then said the conference shouldn't add a second team in the same market. If they're separate markets, what's the problem.

Although history doesn't bring in fans, it's worth noting that despite losing the 1958 NIT, Dayton did win the 1962 NIT and went to the Final Four few years later.

I agree with you that any additions should move the needle, so I wouldn't jump at Dayton. But Dayton is worth considering as part of a long term plan. Like you, I would jump at Gonzaga. I disagree that the football schools are worth waiting for. They're not coming. Certainly where I live, there is no talk of UConn going to the Big East among fans that I know. These schools are looking long term. They watched how long it took Louisville to develop their program and are similarly looking long term. VCU is a much more realistic option in the East.

[robinreed]

Reply to XUdash and Bill,

I am an XU grad and attended when X and Dayton played each other yearly. I have NO objection to bringing Dayton in if we go to 14. It was a good rivalry in the past and would be a good rivalry in future. The cities are only 48 miles from each other. In terms of population the Cincinnati-Dayton metroplex as of 2013 had a combined population of almost 3.3 million (2.3 mm Cincy, .95 mm Dayton) and expansion and growth in the area along the I-75 corridor has created almost 1 city.

My only concern is that VCU and Wichita are both more deserving of membership and should be the first to be invited. Of course if Uconn should ever downsize football to FCS they would be the first choice. However should we ever go to 14 Dayton and St. Louis must be considered first. My expectation however is that until our TV viewership increases massively the BE will be given NO additional monies for any expansion with the possible exception of Uconn. This could kill the expansion discussion for a decade or more.

[Bill Marsh]

Reply to XUdash and Bill,

I am an XU grad and attended when X and Dayton played each other yearly. I have NO objection to bringing Dayton in if we go to 14. It was a good rivalry in the past and would be a good rivalry in future. The cities are only 48 miles from each other. In terms of population the Cincinnati-Dayton metroplex as of 2013 had a combined population of almost 3.3 million (2.3 mm Cincy, .95 mm Dayton) and expansion and growth in the area along the I-75 corridor has created almost 1 city.

My only concern is that VCU and Wichita are both more deserving of membership and should be the first to be invited. Of course if Uconn should ever downsize football to FCS they would be the first choice. However should we ever go to 14 Dayton and St. Louis must be considered first. My expectation however is that until our TV viewership increases massively the BE will be given NO additional monies for any expansion with the possible exception of Uconn. This could kill the expansion discussion for a decade or more.

Yes, I agree that TV viewership should be the first concern. It's TV revenue that makes this conference possible at the level that it's at. The conference can't afford to rest on its laurels, became complacent, and assume that the gravy train will continue regardless of other factors.

I think that the second goal should be to sell out the BE tournament. In this regard, a large East Coast school like VCU would be a plus, given their location on the I-95/Amtrak corridor. I think that Dayton also brings some positives in that they have a rabid fan base that will travel well. They're also the easternmost of the Midwest schools, making even driving to the tournament a possibility.

Improving TV ratings starts with building the programs so that they command national interest. Success in the NCAA tournament is imperative to generate a national profile. Despite their location, Gonzaga is the school that would initially create the most buzz. Their consistency makes them a good risk for the long run. Whatever the case may be, they need to create the buzz that makes the "must see" TV.

I actually prefer to stay at 10. Going to 11 with Gonzaga would be nice, but an odd number creates schedule challenges because there's always someone without a conference mate to play. It's less difficult to juggle that in basketball than football. So, it's possible but not ideal.

The best thing about 10 is that it's much easier for teams to go from worst to first sort of the way that Butler has this year. As we saw in the old Big East, it's too easy to get stuck in the basement and too easy for the power structure to get established at the top in a much larger conference.

The bottom line is that additions should be strategic and well thought out. It would be best not to go beyond 12. Waiting around for schools like UConn seems to me to be too great a risk and too far away to be useful to what the conference needs to do in the next few years. It really is highly unlikely that a school like UConn is going to drop down in football in the next 10 years.

It should be interesting.

[Know Nothing]

I voted for Saint Louis(Jesuit) and Dayton(Marianist).

I voted for Saint Louis for its location in the Saint Louis market and I voted for Dayton for its large, traveling fan base and the rivalries it would bring to the Big East.

I didn't vote for Gonzaga because of geographic/travel problems and I didn't vote for the non-Catholic schools because of a lack of institutional fit.