Awful Announcing: Will Big East Low Ratings Scare B1G Away?

[stever20]

When DePaul owned Chicago, there were tons of Big Ten alums in the city just like today, right? So that disadvantage to DePaul, or advantage to the Big Ten is no different than it was back from 1977-84 or whatever. What is required to start off is for DePaul to contend for NCAA bids each year.

I think back in the late 70s thru mid 80s there was a threesome of DePaul, Marquette and Notre Dame that dominated Chicago hoops interest.

Wisconsin was awful til around only 20 years ago. They hired former Friars assistant, later Knicks head coach, and current Big East executive Stu Jackson. That as followed soon after by Virginia Tony Bennett's father, then Bo Ryan. Keep in mind that Bo Ryan will turn 68 this year, so what happens to Wisconsin when he leaves?

Illinois, looking at past records, made the NCAA's a bunch of times in the 80's under Lou Henson, but weren't considered a national power, and didnt break through past the Sweet 16 til their 89 Final Four. Weird fact is that as a conference, between Indiana's titles in 81 and 87, the Big Ten sent zero teams beyond the Sweet 16. I think the Pac-10 had a similar drought.

Anyway, for old guys like me, we've seen the pendulum swing back and forth so many times with many teams in all sports that a DePaul-dominated Chicago sounds completely reasonable and very likely.

I think 1 thing has changed things considerably has been the Big Ten conference tournament. Remember, before 1997- they never had a tournament. Now, it's been at the United Center 8 of the 16 years.

[Gopher+RamFan]

Because there will be Big Ten games on FS2.

Why would the B1G put their non-marquee games on FS2, instead of BTN? BTN is highly profitable (44cents a viewer, FS1 is somewhere around 70 cents, ESPN2 90 cents, ESPN is $5.44), and the B1G owns 49% of it outright.

The current deal us pretty good, with marquee games going to ESPN/2, others on BTN. FS2 would be a MAJOR downgrade.

I'm sorry, but I'd wager Wisconsin leads MU during in season ratings (which are all that matter for Conferences seeking partnerships with cable companies) and I hate the Badgers.

How do we not know in three years from now FS2 is not many more homes? The picks don't go by marquee to non-marquee. It goes by whatever goes in the contract.

As for Wisconsin/Marquette, if both teams are good as a said it's 53/47, which let's face it is even. The last two years Wisconsin has dominated. In 2013 when Marquette won the Big East and went to the Elite 8, Marquette had the numbers. All of them not on the radar when it comes to the Packers.

You're asking the B1G to come to FS, with the hopes that FS2 gains more viewers in three years on a "how do we not know"? What I do know is the BTN is worth triple of FS2, and the B1G gets HALF of all that revenue.

The picks go marquee/non-marquee because people PUT that in the contract. The B1G gets their top games on ESPN, and non-marquee (MN-Iowa last night) on the BTN. You think the contract specifies which matchups will be on which channels, when the contract is over 5 seasons?

Where are you getting this 53/47 stat? In another post, you said that's only for the NCAA tournament ratings. I'm talking about regular season (which is what cable companies are paying for), and if you're saying the state university of Wisconsin is on par ratings wise with Marquette then I need what you're smoking.

The Big East can make the right decisions and come out ahead in this. The B1G coming to Fox Sports would help that network immensely, in turn helping the BE.

Some of you are thinking this from BE rose colored glasses, the Big Ten will do what's best for them. Coming to Fox Sports, they will demand the marquee time slots on their game days (like they have on ESPN). Why would they make the switch to lose prime time status, on a network who's in less homes and viewed by the general public (for better or worse) as inferior. Then you want their secondary and tertiary games on FS2 instead of BTN, where they will lose even more money and branding??

You can wish all you want that FS2 rises and makes an impact. But a major conference isn't going to switch on a gamble, Fox Sports would have to pay a lot more than ESPN, as well as make up for the loss of major programming on BTN.

[hoyahooligan]

Again there's plenty of time on FS1 for both conferences. Right now BE is on 3-4 days a week Max. We could easily Have BE on Monday, B10 on Tuesday, BE on Wednesday, B10 Thursday, BE on Saturday, B10 on Sunday.

[butlerguy03]

Again there's plenty of time on FS1 for both conferences. Right now BE is on 3-4 days a week Max. We could easily Have BE on Monday, B10 on Tuesday, BE on Wednesday, B10 Thursday, BE on Saturday, B10 on Sunday.

It would be nice to see doubleheaders. Especially Saturdays, BE 12pm, B10 3:30pm, BE 6pm, B10, 8:30pm, Pac12 11pm - being associated with the B10 would only help us in the long term. Call it "Big Saturdays with Big 10 and Big East basketball." Alternate on FS2 or FOX or BTN.

Don't forget that Fox owns 51% of the Big Ten Network.

[Frank the Tank]

When DePaul owned Chicago, there were tons of Big Ten alums in the city just like today, right? So that disadvantage to DePaul, or advantage to the Big Ten is no different than it was back from 1977-84 or whatever. What is required to start off is for DePaul to contend for NCAA bids each year.

I think back in the late 70s thru mid 80s there was a threesome of DePaul, Marquette and Notre Dame that dominated Chicago hoops interest.

Wisconsin was awful til around only 20 years ago. They hired former Friars assistant, later Knicks head coach, and current Big East executive Stu Jackson. That as followed soon after by Virginia Tony Bennett's father, then Bo Ryan. Keep in mind that Bo Ryan will turn 68 this year, so what happens to Wisconsin when he leaves?

Illinois, looking at past records, made the NCAA's a bunch of times in the 80's under Lou Henson, but weren't considered a national power, and didnt break through past the Sweet 16 til their 89 Final Four. Weird fact is that as a conference, between Indiana's titles in 81 and 87, the Big Ten sent zero teams beyond the Sweet 16. I think the Pac-10 had a similar drought.

Anyway, for old guys like me, we've seen the pendulum swing back and forth so many times with many teams in all sports that a DePaul-dominated Chicago sounds completely reasonable and very likely.

The character of Chicago has fundamentally changed from the '70s and '80s. When DePaul, Marquette and Notre Dame were the most popular programs in the city, most college loyalties were of the "subway alum" variety where largely blue collar Catholics that were born and raised in Chicago latched onto certain schools even when they didn't attend them. College grads weren't moving en masse to places like Lincoln Park and Wrigleyville (the latter being a straight up ghetto until it started gentrifying in the early-1980s). At the same time, the other large Big Ten states like Michigan and Ohio were still retaining a lot more of their grads at home instead of sending them off to Chicago.

It's significantly different now. Even though there have always been a lot of Big Ten grads in the Chicago area, it has been multiplied by magnitudes over the past 20 years. By the state of Michigan's own numbers, more U of Michigan and Michigan State grads move to Chicago specifically after graduation than stay in Michigan, which is an incredible statistic since MSU is still made up of over 90% in-state students. Ohio State sees a similar exodus. That wasn't happening at anywhere near the same degree in the 70s and 80s. There's also the reverse of the out-of-state Big Ten schools attracting many more Chicago area students compared to two decades ago - U of Iowa now has as many students from the state of Illinois as it does its own home state, while Indiana, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Michigan in particular attract many more Chicago students today. A disproportionate number of those students move back to the Chicago area after they graduate. Add on top of that is the gentrification of the much of the North Side of Chicago which has been a magnet for new college grads from across the Midwest (AKA the Big Ten schools) that wasn't in existence in the 1970s and 1980s. The influx of Big Ten grads specifically is the basis of much of the gentrification of Lincoln Park and Lakeview, which in turn drew even more Big Ten grads because of network effects, which in turn gentrified even more neighborhoods. It's now a white collar professional city with a lot more educated transplants and a lot fewer Catholics. As a result, the college fandom in Chicago is now much more direct with the transplants that actually attended their respective schools as opposed to the subway alums that never attended college anywhere. The percentage of people that attended Big Ten schools that live in Chicago is much higher now compared to DePaul's hey-days and it's a massive amount when looking at raw numbers.

That's not to say that DePaul can't attract a lot of attention if it starts winning. Everyone loves latching onto a winner. That's the "easy" answer for any program's popularity woes. However, the big difference is that there is always going to be a base level of support for Illinois and the other Big Ten schools regardless of how well they might be playing because the loyalties are much more direct and stronger. That base level of support simply isn't there for DePaul - they HAVE to win in order to draw interest in a way that the Big Ten doesn't need to. By definition, that makes Chicago into a Big Ten market (as the support in the bad times is really what shows true fandom as opposed to support when everything is going well).

[butlerguy03]

When DePaul owned Chicago, there were tons of Big Ten alums in the city just like today, right? So that disadvantage to DePaul, or advantage to the Big Ten is no different than it was back from 1977-84 or whatever. What is required to start off is for DePaul to contend for NCAA bids each year.

I think back in the late 70s thru mid 80s there was a threesome of DePaul, Marquette and Notre Dame that dominated Chicago hoops interest.

Wisconsin was awful til around only 20 years ago. They hired former Friars assistant, later Knicks head coach, and current Big East executive Stu Jackson. That as followed soon after by Virginia Tony Bennett's father, then Bo Ryan. Keep in mind that Bo Ryan will turn 68 this year, so what happens to Wisconsin when he leaves?

Illinois, looking at past records, made the NCAA's a bunch of times in the 80's under Lou Henson, but weren't considered a national power, and didnt break through past the Sweet 16 til their 89 Final Four. Weird fact is that as a conference, between Indiana's titles in 81 and 87, the Big Ten sent zero teams beyond the Sweet 16. I think the Pac-10 had a similar drought.

Anyway, for old guys like me, we've seen the pendulum swing back and forth so many times with many teams in all sports that a DePaul-dominated Chicago sounds completely reasonable and very likely.

The character of Chicago has fundamentally changed from the '70s and '80s. When DePaul, Marquette and Notre Dame were the most popular programs in the city, most college loyalties were of the "subway alum" variety where largely blue collar Catholics that were born and raised in Chicago latched onto certain schools even when they didn't attend them. College grads weren't moving en masse to places like Lincoln Park and Wrigleyville (the latter being a straight up ghetto until it started gentrifying in the early-1980s). At the same time, the other large Big Ten states like Michigan and Ohio were still retaining a lot more of their grads at home instead of sending them off to Chicago.

It's significantly different now. Even though there have always been a lot of Big Ten grads in the Chicago area, it has been multiplied by magnitudes over the past 20 years. By the state of Michigan's own numbers, more U of Michigan and Michigan State grads move to Chicago specifically after graduation than stay in Michigan, which is an incredible statistic since MSU is still made up of over 90% in-state students. Ohio State sees a similar exodus. That wasn't happening at anywhere near the same degree in the 70s and 80s. There's also the reverse of the out-of-state Big Ten schools attracting many more Chicago area students compared to two decades ago - U of Iowa now has as many students from the state of Illinois as it does its own home state, while Indiana, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Michigan in particular attract many more Chicago students today. A disproportionate number of those students move back to the Chicago area after they graduate. Add on top of that is the gentrification of the much of the North Side of Chicago which has been a magnet for new college grads from across the Midwest (AKA the Big Ten schools) that wasn't in existence in the 1970s and 1980s. The influx of Big Ten grads specifically is the basis of much of the gentrification of Lincoln Park and Lakeview, which in turn drew even more Big Ten grads because of network effects, which in turn gentrified even more neighborhoods. It's now a white collar professional city with a lot of educated transplants and not nearly as Catholic-dominated. As a result, the college fandom in Chicago is now much more direct with the transplants that actually attended their respective schools as opposed to the subway alums that never attended college anywhere. The percentage of people that attended Big Ten schools that live in Chicago is much higher now compared to DePaul's hey-days and it's a massive amount when looking at raw numbers.

That's not to say that DePaul can't attract a lot of attention if it starts winning. Everyone loves latching onto a winner. That's the "easy" answer for any program's popularity woes. However, the big difference is that there is always going to be a base level of support for Illinois and the other Big Ten schools regardless of how well they might be playing because the loyalties are much more direct and stronger. That base level of support simply isn't there for DePaul - they HAVE to win in order to draw interest in a way that the Big Ten doesn't need to. By definition, that makes Chicago into a Big Ten market (as the support in the bad times is really what shows true fandom as opposed to support when everything is going well).

Same problem in Indianapolis. More than just IU and Purdue grads here now. Big Ten grads outnumber Butler grads probably 75:1.

[Frank the Tank]

Same problem in Indianapolis. More than just IU and Purdue grads here now. Big Ten grads outnumber Butler grads probably 75:1.

Yes, and that's simply a big difference between Chicago, Indianapolis and other Midwestern markets that have had the best economic and population growth (i.e. Minneapolis and Columbus) compared to the East Coast. The sheer concentration of Big Ten grads in those areas is unlike anything that you'd see in NYC or Boston, where the college loyalties are much more dispersed with a lot more grads of smaller private schools without as much athletic tradition. The spread goes even beyond the Midwest: there are actually more Big Ten grads living in the Phoenix market than Pac-12 grads (and those Pac-12 schools aren't small). Each freshman class at both Indiana and Purdue is twice as large as the entire enrollment at places like Butler and Providence. Even Northwestern, which is the private outlier in the Big Ten, has more undergrads than every Big East school except for DePaul and St. John's.

[beltwaybluejay]

I guess B 12 - BIG grads must be avoiding Omaha like the plague - just the reverse for the Jays!

[Gopher+RamFan]

Again there's plenty of time on FS1 for both conferences. Right now BE is on 3-4 days a week Max. We could easily Have BE on Monday, B10 on Tuesday, BE on Wednesday, B10 Thursday, BE on Saturday, B10 on Sunday.

It would be nice to see doubleheaders. Especially Saturdays, BE 12pm, B10 3:30pm, BE 6pm, B10, 8:30pm, Pac12 11pm - being associated with the B10 would only help us in the long term. Call it "Big Saturdays with Big 10 and Big East basketball." Alternate on FS2 or FOX or BTN.

Don't forget that Fox owns 51% of the Big Ten Network.

Yes, and if the B1G puts their games on FS2, they'd have to eat their lossed revenue from having no live programming on BTN. It would have to make sense for the B1G to allow their games to be shown on FS2, right now it doesn't make sense.

[billyjack]

Same problem in Indianapolis. More than just IU and Purdue grads here now. Big Ten grads outnumber Butler grads probably 75:1.

Yes, and that's simply a big difference between Chicago, Indianapolis and other Midwestern markets that have had the best economic and population growth (i.e. Minneapolis and Columbus) compared to the East Coast. The sheer concentration of Big Ten grads in those areas is unlike anything that you'd see in NYC or Boston, where the college loyalties are much more dispersed with a lot more grads of smaller private schools without as much athletic tradition. The spread goes even beyond the Midwest: there are actually more Big Ten grads living in the Phoenix market than Pac-12 grads (and those Pac-12 schools aren't small). Each freshman class at both Indiana and Purdue is twice as large as the entire enrollment at places like Butler and Providence. Even Northwestern, which is the private outlier in the Big Ten, has more undergrads than every Big East school except for DePaul and St. John's.

Thanks Frank for talking this through in your messages. Really helpful and interesting.