Why The Big East Won't Expand - - Round Robin

[Bill Marsh]

Would Gonzaga be in just for basketball, or are we flying the women's field hockey team cross country too?

Have to be in for all sports. Your basketball conference has to be your main athletic conference.

Rhetorical question. When we talk expansion, it seems that the focus is only on one sport. While men's basketball is the money make, there are a lot of costs placed on an athletic budget by the other teams. Iitis a bigger problem for Gonzaga, who would have to travel to themidwest and east coast for every one of their games. It makes no sense and provides them little benefit.

This issue has been addressed earlier in the thread. The costs and the number of teams are much less than you think.

[Frank the Tank]

Would Gonzaga be in just for basketball, or are we flying the women's field hockey team cross country too?

Have to be in for all sports. Your basketball conference has to be your main athletic conference.

This is the key. There's no such thing as a "basketball-only" member, so you have to consider all sports. It's also not just flight time - the time zone changes are what's really killer. Even if Omaha is about equidistant as the crow flies between Spokane and NYC, the trip to NYC is MUCH less taxing because you're only crossing one time zone. This is to say nothing of the relative lack of airport service to Spokane overall - once again, that matters greatly to non-revenue sports that aren't chartering flights. We're not talking about flying into a major airport like Seattle with lots of options.

What's more realistic is to have some type of formalized relationship with the WCC where Gonzaga, BYU and other WCC teams have a non-conference challenge with the Big East (just as it has with the Big Ten). This could even be in January or February after the conference season starts (which is what the SEC and Big 12 are doing for their challenge starting next year). That would provide more basketball TV inventory for the league without burdening all of the other sports. For all of the complaints about the widespread geography in conference realignment, the only non-adjacent addition in any power conference was West Virginia (and that was with the Big 12 looking for any life raft) and none of the moves added new time zones to their existing footprints other than the Colorado/Utah expansion for the Pac-12 (which was just one time zone east).

As for the OP topic, the existence of the round robin ought to be the *least* compelling reason to not expand. At best, it's a by-product of a 10-team conference. It should NOT be a driving factor when looking at the long-term strength of this conference based on demographics and media markets. How much fans and coaches like the Big 12 and Big East round-robin scheduling is irrelevant - there's a certain strength in numbers when it comes to media and demographic power, which is why the truly powerful conferences have expanded while the weakest one of the top group (the Big 12) contracted. Waiting for perfection in expansion is a dangerous game, as the Big 12 learned when they thought they deluded themselves into thinking that they could get Florida State and Clemson instead of adding Louisville (who they would have added in a *heartbeat* if they could go back in time). The Big East has the power to be the aggressor right now at the non-FBS level, but complacency has proven to be a long-term loser in conference realignment (as the football Big East itself showed). Deluding themselves into thinking that they'll add UConn (who isn't dropping FBS football) is the same type of thinking the old Big East and current Big 12 administrations engaged in (where they were obsessed with keeping larger pieces of a smaller pie as opposed to finding ways to expand the pie to be larger in the way forward thinking leagues like the Big Ten and SEC did).

[Bill Marsh]

Would Gonzaga be in just for basketball, or are we flying the women's field hockey team cross country too?

Have to be in for all sports. Your basketball conference has to be your main athletic conference.

This is the key. There's no such thing as a "basketball-only" member, so you have to consider all sports. It's also not just flight time - the time zone changes are what's really killer. Even if Omaha is about equidistant as the crow flies between Spokane and NYC, the trip to NYC is MUCH less taxing because you're only crossing one time zone. This is to say nothing of the relative lack of airport service to Spokane overall - once again, that matters greatly to non-revenue sports that aren't chartering flights. We're not talking about flying into a major airport like Seattle with lots of options.

Frank, exactly how many teams are we talking about. It's not really "all sports" because all sports don't play regular conference schedules. Many compete only in a conference tournament.

The time zones are a "killer"? Seriously? It's once a year. The school that it's a killer for is Gonzaga, and they're already on record as saying it's not a problem for them.

[Bill Marsh]

A few more thoughts on this Gonzaga geography thing . . .

Every year we see teams fly to Alaska for a holiday tournament and to Hawaii for 3 others. This year DePaul was one of the teams willing to do that. Not only did DePaul happily accept the invitation to Hawaii, but they scheduled a game as Oregon State in the same season, a trip at least as long as going to Spokane. Somehow that wasn't a problem for the kids on this year's team.

This year as well Xavier happily accepted an invitation to the Wooden Classic in Anaheim. Somehow the 3 time zone thing didn't seem to be a problem for them. (I know that their first game was in Cincinnati.)

I don't see any schools turning down NCAA tournament bids because they've been placed in the West region. Heck, they're not even turning down NIT or CBI bids when lengthy travel is part of the deal. In fact, many schools pull their kids out of class for the entire week to play 2 tournament games. If they're lucky enough to play deep into the tournament, they might miss weeks of class time. No one utters a peep about that.

Almost all schools take a break of a full month between semesters. A double round robin schedule with 11 schools would probably necessitate an earlier start to the season? At least in the MAAC it does. So why not take full advantage of that month to schedule as many games as possible that involve Gonzaga? The long trip really can't be considered to be a problem when the kids don't have to get back for class, can it?

As I said earlier in this thread, there are solutions to these problems for anyone who wants to look for them. And I have to wonder why a 5 hour flight is worse than a 5 hour bus ride, something that was standard for schools all over the country 50 years ago. In fact many bus rides and train trips before air travel were longer than 5 hours.

[Bill Marsh]

It started snowing again, so I'm waiting before clearing it. That left me with time on my hands

More data on this subject . . .

Last year, Marquette played 4 games during the regular season in California and one in Vegas. Meanwhile Heorgetown flew their team to South Korea to play a game! say, what???

Somehow time zones and distance weren't an impediment to pulling kids out of class for those trips.

[bmorex]

Just wanted to jump in and agree wholeheartedly with you, Bill.

"I don't want to send all of my team's programs to Spokane for a game" is such a cop-out because of what you outlined a few pages back, where a large majority of non-revenue sports only attend one conference championship type event per year.

If Gonzaga wants to foot the bill for their own travel to come east, more power to them. If they're for it, then the school should be added.

[billyjack]

Has this been brought up????


What if Few leaves or decides to retire?? Few (2000-present) was behind the wheel for almost all of Gonzaga's accomplishments (15 NCAA's & 4 Sweet 16's) . They have 2 NCAA's & 1 Elite 8 (year prior 99') before him. How is this different than the Shaka Smart/VCU conundrum?

I know they have a brand now, but what happens when he leaves. They still only play WCC competition. Saying this, I still would love to have the top 4 of the league find a way to play them 2 home & 2 away non-conference schedule.

With Few and Gonzaga...
He is from the Northwest and has made it clear that he wants to stay at Gonzaga (schools don't even bother asking him anymore). Luckily, he's only just turned 53, so he has many years ahead of him with the Zags. Along with JT3 at Georgetown and Ed Cooley, plus Jay Wright, plus maybe Chris Mack, unless something really unfortunate happens (health, etc), we'd have the 3 (and 4 and 5) of them as Big East fixtures for 10+ years.

[Bill Marsh]

Has this been brought up????


What if Few leaves or decides to retire?? Few (2000-present) was behind the wheel for almost all of Gonzaga's accomplishments (15 NCAA's & 4 Sweet 16's) . They have 2 NCAA's & 1 Elite 8 (year prior 99') before him. How is this different than the Shaka Smart/VCU conundrum?

I know they have a brand now, but what happens when he leaves. They still only play WCC competition. Saying this, I still would love to have the top 4 of the league find a way to play them 2 home & 2 away non-conference schedule.

With Few and Gonzaga...
He is from the Northwest and has made it clear that he wants to stay at Gonzaga (schools don't even bother asking him anymore). Luckily, he's only just turned 53, so he has many years ahead of him with the Zags. Along with JT3 at Georgetown and Ed Cooley, plus Jay Wright, plus maybe Chris Mack, unless something really unfortunate happens (health, etc), we'd have the 3 (and 4 and 5) of them as Big East fixtures for 10+ years.

Yes, Few has said that the best fly fishing in the world is only a few miles away, so why should he go anywhere else?

On top of of having him for years to come, Gonzaga has shown their commitment to winning by the investments they've made in the program. Their teams all travel first class - all, not just basketball. Their home games are sold out with a waiting list. And that's with WCAC level competition coming in. There is a larger civic arena available in Spokane for the bigger crowds that likely would be generated by Big East competition. They've built excellent facilities.

This program isn't just about Few. It's institutional. You really couldn't get a more ideal candidate for the Big East; they have everything you'd be looking for in a conference member. And the fact is they just feel like they belong. Once the C7 decided to go in the direction it did, Gonzaga is the one missing piece. We should have all the elite Catholic school programs together under one umbrella. On top of that, they no longer fit in the conference they're playing in. It's like having a national power playing in the MAAC.

The people who should be objecting are the people at Gonzaga. But incredibly they're not! They're saying, "We'll make it work." And the Big East is sitting on its hands. Boggles the mind. Especially when you realize that Creighton is half way there, allowing teams to leap frog from one to the other. It's one long road trip a year for goodness sakes.

When I look at the conference race we could be having this year with 2 top ten teams, it's just a shame. It would be like the 1980's all over again.

[gtmoBlue]

What's more realistic is to have some type of formalized relationship with the WCC where Gonzaga, BYU and other WCC teams have a non-conference challenge with the Big East (just as it has with the Big Ten). This could even be in January or February after the conference season starts (which is what the SEC and Big 12 are doing for their challenge starting next year). That would provide more basketball TV inventory for the league without burdening all of the other sports.

As for the OP topic, the existence of the round robin ought to be the *least* compelling reason to not expand. At best, it's a by-product of a 10-team conference. It should NOT be a driving factor when looking at the long-term strength of this conference based on demographics and media markets. How much fans and coaches like the Big 12 and Big East round-robin scheduling is irrelevant - there's a certain strength in numbers when it comes to media and demographic power, which is why the truly powerful conferences have expanded while the weakest one of the top group (the Big 12) contracted. Waiting for perfection in expansion is a dangerous game, as the Big 12 learned when they thought they deluded themselves into thinking that they could get Florida State and Clemson instead of adding Louisville (who they would have added in a *heartbeat* if they could go back in time). The Big East has the power to be the aggressor right now at the non-FBS level, but complacency has proven to be a long-term loser in conference realignment (as the football Big East itself showed). Deluding themselves into thinking that they'll add UConn (who isn't dropping FBS football) is the same type of thinking the old Big East and current Big 12 administrations engaged in (where they were obsessed with keeping larger pieces of a smaller pie as opposed to finding ways to expand the pie to be larger in the way forward thinking leagues like the Big Ten and SEC did).

.

Excellent synopsis of the current state of BE affairs, absolutely on target. You are 100% correct that complacency and waiting for a "perfect storm" has been the undoing of the B12 and the former BE.
An aggressive and proactive action plan is called for and should be implemented this year. 4 teams should be targeted and engaged in preliminary discussions - in Order: (Zags, Duke, Temple, and either WF or Vandy). The 1st pair move the needle, the 2nd pair fill the gaps. Engaging them now will give us an early lead in pre-empting
- further B1G raids on the ACC
- a post NCAA hammer on UNCs academic scandal
- a potential ACC implosion caused by both items above
- avoids waiting for football realignment crumbs to fall out

The conference now has the financial where with all, with TV money, new Nike deal, and an upcoming Multi-Media Rights deal to confidently attract, negotiate, and gain a Gonzaga, Duke, or other high profile addition to the BE. We need to begin to negotiate from our newfound strength - now, and not wait for the next round of football carnage to take football leftovers.

[DudeAnon]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But you can pretty much eliminate any P5 school as a possible expansion candidate. It just ain't happening.