4 x 16

[NJRedman]

This keeps on failing to post for some reason, so the third time MUST be the charm! haha

The GoR aren't as hard to break as folks seem to think, just like how those exit fees weren't a deterrent.

Notre Dame is using the ACC for as long as it can to extend it's FB independence. Once they learn that it's going to be 4/16 with the CCG being the first round of the playoffs they will join a conference and they will join the one they feel will help reach their alumni and make the most money and thats the B1G.

The ACC will still be alive but will be the island of misfit toys. Those schools shunned by the big 3 but still good enough to be part of the big boys club.

Also we stand to make out pretty good from this since we are the best non-FB conference and pose no threat to their precious FB money. We would help increase the interest in their BBall tourney and try and prove they are being inclusive.

B1G:

East- RU, Mary, PSU, UVA, OSU, MSU, UM, ND

West- UW, Iowa, Minny, NW, IU, Ill, NU, Purdue

SEC:

East: UF, UGA, USC, UNC, VT, Vandy, UT, UK

West- A&M, Mizz, LSU, Ark, Ole Miss, MSU, Bama, Auburn

Pac-16: (The Pac can go either North/South or East/West)

North- UO, OSU, UW, WSU, Cal, Stan, Utah, CU

South- USC, UCLA, ASU, UA, UT, Tech, OU, OSU

or

East- UT, Tech, ASU, UA, CU, Utah, OU, OSU

West- UW, WSU, UO, OSU, Cal, Stan, USC, UCLA

ACC:

East- Miami, FSU, GT, Clemson, WF, Duke, NC St, BC

West- Baylor, TCU, KU, KSU, Pitt, WVU, UofL, Cuse

We as the Big East could pick up some good programs left behind if they want in a non-FB conference. UC, ISU, UConn and Memphis.

[Bill Marsh]

I realize that 4 x 16 is a football construct...but I think the endgame is it kills the basketball tournament.

Reason is this: Once those 64 (65 with ND) get going with what they have in place, they will not care to lose the smaller schools out of March Madness. 32 teams of the 64/5 for men's basketball will be fine with them. Even with the proud histories of some of the schools left out, the football schools are going to want total control of everything. The Big East and everyone under it is in trouble if this ever comes to pass. Which tournament is the casual fan (where advertising money is made) going to watch? The one with Duke, Kansas, UK, and UNC or Georgetown, Marquette, Gonzaga, and VCU? I don't think the networks are paying anything of substance for a tournament without the state schools.

I hate the very existence of college football anymore because it has taken over sports in general, and will further erode all other sports. I agree with Dash that this uncertainty is why the Big East stopped at 10 teams and will never expand past it. If D4 takes off, we're all in trouble. If D4 is a disaster, the Big East will already have the 10 they want. I think the best-case scenario for basketball schools is for D4 to not happen...but it seems that it could be on the horizon.

Some commentators have stated that the "split" will see the football schools taking some of the basketball only conferences in order to keep the NCAA Tournament. That's the dream all of us who root for schools without football have to hold onto. The schools in the Big East (and a few others) are good enough in basketball to be legitimate contenders...if the state schools want to open up the field to those schools.

Good luck to you all.

The only reason that the basketball tournament could stay the way it is, is that it already has a winning formula. The power conferences already get the lion's share of the money, so they won't increase their revenue much by excluding everyone else. But it is the very fact that it has everyone else that gives it mass appeal. Sure, they will continue to attract the casual fan, as you point out, but under the current format, they get people to watch who aren't college basketball fans at all. If they try to sponsor their own separate tournament, they will kill the goose that laid the golden egg. It simply will not have the same mass appeal that March Madness does.

[Xudash]

I realize that 4 x 16 is a football construct...but I think the endgame is it kills the basketball tournament.

Reason is this: Once those 64 (65 with ND) get going with what they have in place, they will not care to lose the smaller schools out of March Madness. 32 teams of the 64/5 for men's basketball will be fine with them. Even with the proud histories of some of the schools left out, the football schools are going to want total control of everything. The Big East and everyone under it is in trouble if this ever comes to pass. Which tournament is the casual fan (where advertising money is made) going to watch? The one with Duke, Kansas, UK, and UNC or Georgetown, Marquette, Gonzaga, and VCU? I don't think the networks are paying anything of substance for a tournament without the state schools.

I hate the very existence of college football anymore because it has taken over sports in general, and will further erode all other sports. I agree with Dash that this uncertainty is why the Big East stopped at 10 teams and will never expand past it. If D4 takes off, we're all in trouble. If D4 is a disaster, the Big East will already have the 10 they want. I think the best-case scenario for basketball schools is for D4 to not happen...but it seems that it could be on the horizon.

Some commentators have stated that the "split" will see the football schools taking some of the basketball only conferences in order to keep the NCAA Tournament. That's the dream all of us who root for schools without football have to hold onto. The schools in the Big East (and a few others) are good enough in basketball to be legitimate contenders...if the state schools want to open up the field to those schools.

Good luck to you all.

The only reason that the basketball tournament could stay the way it is, is that it already has a winning formula. The power conferences already get the lion's share of the money, so they won't increase their revenue much by excluding everyone else. But it is the very fact that it has everyone else that gives it mass appeal. Sure, they will continue to attract the casual fan, as you point out, but under the current format, they get people to watch who aren't college basketball fans at all. If they try to sponsor their own separate tournament, they will kill the goose that laid the golden egg. It simply will not have the same mass appeal that March Madness does.

This.

BillikensWin, I'll state it again: they are solving for football, period, end of story.

The existing NCAA Basketball Tournament cannot be replicated. A basketball tournament comprised of only the 4 x 16 would garner a disproportionate amount of money in the form of a television agreement, but it wouldn't come close to what is structured into the existing NCAA Tournament deal. The inclusive nature of the existing deal with its David & Goliath drama during the first weekend makes that tournament massively appealing. As Bill noted, they're already doing financially well within the existing framework. They have no desire to pursue complete separation.

This is a football issue that will be addressed for football.

[stever20]

My thought is pretty simple, the basketball tournament is right now the ONLY reason why there is no split. Also the fact the tv deal is only 2-3 years old now is a factor as well.

[BillikensWin]

It is a football story.

That said, other than the Big East formation, what has football not dominated?

[gosports1]

som which one of us will be the 1st to predictwhich schools would make up a 16 team BE?

[TerryD]

ND has signed the following agreements with the ACC:

1) Grant of Rights;

2) Exit Fee;

3) A contract that says if ND football has to join a conference before 2027, it must be the ACC.


http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... dependence


ND does not want to join the Big Ten Conference under any circumstances. Much of ND's decisions since 1999 are reflected by this desire to avoid being a member of that conference.

ND folks are convinced (you can argue they are wrong, but it is their belief that matters here) that the Big Ten is an organization run solely for the benefit of Michigan and Ohio State, one that would go against ND's interests at every turn, even if ND was a member of that conference. There is also the "regionalization" concern, although the presence of Texas and Oklahoma would help with that.

There is a ton of enmity towards the Big Ten from ND people. ND wants no part of the Big Ten, for a bunch of reasons.

In the Realignment Wars, that would be like the Americans surrendering to the Japanese at Bataan. That is the worst case scenario outcome for ND (being "left out" is just not realistic, in my opinion).

Here is a link to a blog that has a map of ND games from 2014-16. (I would just post the map but don't know how to post photos here, sorry.)


http://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2014/ ... edule.html


One look at this map will tell you all about ND's goals (in addition to remaining independent).


It wants to play in California, the Southeast, Southwest and the Atlantic seaboard, from Boston to Miami. ND has shifted much of its recruiting focus to the Tidewater area of Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, etc...

Being in the ACC gives it the Southeast and somewhat of a Northeast presence. USC and Stanford gives it games in California. Games against Texas, Oklahoma and Arizona State give it somewhat of a Southwest presence. The Shamrock Series games will continue to rotate among Texas cities and the Northeast (pro stadiums) from time to time.

Six home games a year give it all the exposure it needs in the Midwest. ND is only in the Midwest by accident, with Father Sorin stopping there in a snowstorm in 1842. It doesn't really think of itself as a "Midwestern school".

ND has adopted a sort of "Southern Strategy" (more of a Southeast/Southwest/Northeast/West Coast) regarding scheduling and recruiting presence.

The Big Ten just doesn't provide the same sort of national coverage that ND has right now, even if Texas joined, especially with a nine or ten game conference schedule.

[Michael in Raleigh]

The GOR is more vulnerable than you think.

thoroughly explained here:

http://msn.foxsports.com/college-footba ... hts-010313

grant of rights will have no impact on expansion. Big East is not going to be impacted by this unless by some odd chance the ACC becomes a loser in the whole process. I don't believe consolidation is done and the B1G is the reason why I don't believe it's done. The B1G seems pretty clear in their vision - expand into major markets within a reasonable geographic footprint with schools of like qualities.

That's a good link and lends some credence to your argument, but iy is going way too far to say GOR's will have no impact on expansion. If, as the link says, the GOR's would not mean any less damage to a conference's media value when it gets raided than if it didn't exist, then there wouod be no point in having them. That article basically suggests that a GOR means nothing. But the problem is that no one knows whether that is true. If the Big Ten challenges the Big 12 or ACC's GOR, it is essentially rendering its own GOR useless. Who's to say that that very GOR is not what kept Penn State from ever leaving, or at least considering, the Big Ten for the ACC? GOR's are THE way of committing schools to stay together.

Read up in Frank the Tank's blog for information about it. He has convinced me pretty well that no one is leaving any of the four GOR's leagues (Pac-12, Big Ten, ACC, Big 12) until they are expired. Schools in those no longer own their own media rights, except for third-tier (for the Big 12 only) and minor things like radio broadcasts; their conferences own them because the schools granted those media rights to them. Yes, that could be challenged in court, but man, if the raiding conference lost that court battle, they would lose hundreds of millions. I doubt any of them would be willinv to take that risk.

[Michael in Raleigh]

Regrding the 4X16 concept, we should notice it is almost always writers and talking heads on ESPN, in addition to message boarders, who bring uo this concept. It isn't conference commissioners and it is almost never presidents orathletic directors. Conferences expand to serve themselves, not because they want to be a nice, tidy number to fit some eight team playoff. The five major conferences have never all had the same numbers at the same time because they want to be at a number that serves themselves. The Pac-12 has no interest in ever going beyond 12 without the University of Texas; they wouldn't even go to 14, with one of the additions being Oklahoma!

Slive doesn't say anything about 4X16. That is the Jacksonville writer drawing his own conclusion from what Slive said about Division IV and autonomy. (And personally, I even think the Division IV threat is nothing but a bunch of bluster to intimidate the less rich leagues into submitting to their will. They know they would face a gigantic public backlash and probably even face threats of losing tax-exempt status if they followed through with Division IV.)

I do agree with the arguments that the Big East is in a good place. For the most part, its schools have enough revenue to fund cost of attendance because they dont have to fund huge football teams with multi-million dollar coaching staffs for two sports, rather than one in basketball.

[NJRedman]

ND has signed the following agreements with the ACC:

1) Grant of Rights;

2) Exit Fee;

3) A contract that says if ND football has to join a conference before 2027, it must be the ACC.


http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... dependence


ND does not want to join the Big Ten Conference under any circumstances. Much of ND's decisions since 1999 are reflected by this desire to avoid being a member of that conference.

ND folks are convinced (you can argue they are wrong, but it is their belief that matters here) that the Big Ten is an organization run solely for the benefit of Michigan and Ohio State, one that would go against ND's interests at every turn, even if ND was a member of that conference. There is also the "regionalization" concern, although the presence of Texas and Oklahoma would help with that.

There is a ton of enmity towards the Big Ten from ND people. ND wants no part of the Big Ten, for a bunch of reasons.

In the Realignment Wars, that would be like the Americans surrendering to the Japanese at Bataan. That is the worst case scenario outcome for ND (being "left out" is just not realistic, in my opinion).

Here is a link to a blog that has a map of ND games from 2014-16. (I would just post the map but don't know how to post photos here, sorry.)


http://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2014/ ... edule.html


One look at this map will tell you all about ND's goals (in addition to remaining independent).


It wants to play in California, the Southeast, Southwest and the Atlantic seaboard, from Boston to Miami. ND has shifted much of its recruiting focus to the Tidewater area of Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, etc...

Being in the ACC gives it the Southeast and somewhat of a Northeast presence. USC and Stanford gives it games in California. Games against Texas, Oklahoma and Arizona State give it somewhat of a Southwest presence. The Shamrock Series games will continue to rotate among Texas cities and the Northeast (pro stadiums) from time to time.

Six home games a year give it all the exposure it needs in the Midwest. ND is only in the Midwest by accident, with Father Sorin stopping there in a snowstorm in 1842. It doesn't really think of itself as a "Midwestern school".

ND has adopted a sort of "Southern Strategy" (more of a Southeast/Southwest/Northeast/West Coast) regarding scheduling and recruiting presence.

The Big Ten just doesn't provide the same sort of national coverage that ND has right now, even if Texas joined, especially with a nine or ten game conference schedule.

Except that if the 4x16 actually took place ND would rather be in the league making more money and not a hodge podge conference made up of the leftovers from the ACC, Big East and Big XII who was also shut out of the DC-NYC corridor. So when ACC schools like UVA, VT and UNC start leaving the B1G starts looking like a much more attractive landing space.

You are missing the whole point of this discussion. If the 4x16 actually happens then ND can be forced to join a conference and lose it's independence. If the CCG is the first round of the playoffs then their independence is over and no matter what you say as a biased fan, the money talks and the Irish will get a ton more with the B1G then they will with the island of misfit toys conference. You might not want to believe it but the folks who run that school sure as hell will look into it. Everyone has principles until those checks start coming in.

P.S. Funny how all of our friends from CSNBBS are finding their way over here.