Commissioner "Val"

[TheHall]

travel is not just distance. It's time zones. St John's plays a Thursday night game in Spokane, they have 0% chance of getting back for a Friday class. St John's plays at Dayton or SLU even- and there's a pretty solid chance the kids are back in time for the class.

You're breaking my heart. Last year St. John's scheduled a road trip vs San Francisco on a Tuesday night. Let them substitute the trip to Spokane for the trip to San Fran and find an OOC opponent closer to home instead.

That's so true yet funny & ironic given the BE's representative in today's men's lax FF is Denver! Regionalism is dead and humans are the main cause of global warming getting over both those facts will help us all better prepare for the future.

[Bill Marsh]

http://www.billikens.com/billiken

That's from the school's site by way of Billikens.com.

Thanks. You're a gentleman and a scholar.

[NJRedman]

I agree with you that Dayton and VCU would likely bring fans to the BE tournament, which is very important and represents assets for them as candidates.

I disagree that St Louis brings a big market. They are in a big market but someone is going to have to show me that they actually bring that market. 15 years ago they drew great attendance but their attendance has steadily declined since that high point. The only thing you can say about their location is that they get the Big East into that market. How well the conference might sell there remains to be seen.

I disagree with your point that a program is measured by what it brings in its down years. No one brings much during their down years. A program is measured more by its ability to sustain a quality program over long periods of time, which reflects a level of commitment by the college. It also helps to have shown some ability to hit high points from time to time.

If you can't use the past as the best estimate of where a program will be in the future, then there is absolutely no objective information by which to evaluate any program. Gonzaga has sustained a successful program for more than 16 years under 2 different coaches. I would think that nodes well for the future. Success can be seen not only in their 16 tournament wins over the past 16 years but also the fact that they sell out every home game every year. Like Providence and Creighton, they are the pro franchise in town, the focus of local sports interest.

Forget about what Gonzaga has done in the WCC as a measure of their quality. Look at the big wins they have put up year after year:

2014 - Arkansas, @West Virginia, BYU twice, Oklahoma State
2013 - West Virginia, Clemson, Oklahoma, Davidson, Kansas State, Baylor, @OK State, @BYU, BYU
2012 - Notre Dame, Arizona, Butler, @Xavier, @BYU, BYU, West Virginia
2011 - Marquette, Baylor, Xavier, Oklahoma State, @Wake Forest, St. John's
2010 - Wisconsin, Cincinnati, Davidson, Oklahoma, @Illinois, Memphis, Florida State
2009 - Oklahoma State, Maryland, @Tennessee, Tennessee, Indiana, Akron, Western Kentucky
2008 - Western Kentucky, VA Tech, @St. Joe's, UConn, Utah, Georgia
2007 - Baylor, @North Carolina, @Texas, Washington, @Stanford
2006 - @Maryland, @Michigan State, Oklahoma State, Virginia, St Louis, St. Joe's, Stanford, Xavier, Indiana
2005 - Washington, UMass, St Louis, Georgia Tech, @Oklahoma State, Winthrop

That's the last 10 years. I could continue but the trend is the same. The point is that they have NOT built their reputation simply on winning the WCC. They have scheduled aggressively OOC and have won more than their share against big time opponents. That kind of program brings value.

Except when it comes to our TV partners, it's not about how many people tune in but getting their channel on the basic tier in that market. It's about the potential. You think the B1G added Rutgers because they can get 3-4 million people to tune in? No, it's because they are actually in the TV market and thats all that matters. Not trying to be a dick but this stuff has been hashed out over and over again during the decade of conference realignment.

Winthrop is a big win for the Zags? WKU? Akron? Davidson? C'mon dude. Also some OOC wins doesn't mean that the Zags can hang game in and game out in the BE. ***EDIT*** Also some of those P5 schools are a joke. Arkansas, Va Tech, Georgia, WVU the last two seasons etc. Oh and BYU is a WCC opponent the last two seasons.

Oh and what you bring to the table when you are down is definitely a consideration. Anyone can bring money to the table when they are good, but guess what? Everyone has down periods, even the best of the best (UK, UCLA, UNC, Indiana). You can't add 12 top level programs and say that they will all succeed. Someone has to lose the games, and those who do still need to bring something to the league. DePaul brings the Chicago market and a good recruiting ground, Seton Hall brings part of the NYC market and a good recruiting ground etc.

Once again, what do the Zags bring to the table if they struggle in the league? Spokane might be bigger than Providence but that doesn't mean much to Fox and it isn't a great recruiting ground. What do they bring to the table? Prestige? They can lose that quite quickly if they struggle. You think ESPN will still treat them kindly once they join up? Not a chance in hell.

[NJRedman]

travel is not just distance. It's time zones. St John's plays a Thursday night game in Spokane, they have 0% chance of getting back for a Friday class. St John's plays at Dayton or SLU even- and there's a pretty solid chance the kids are back in time for the class.

You're breaking my heart. Last year St. John's scheduled a road trip vs San Francisco on a Tuesday night. Let them substitute the trip to Spokane for the trip to San Fran and find an OOC opponent closer to home instead.

That's so true yet funny & ironic given the BE's representative in today's men's lax FF is Denver! Regionalism is dead and humans are the main cause of global warming getting over both those facts will help us all better prepare for the future.

Regionalism is dead? Are you sure about that?

Also we played at SF because Lavins father was being honored at that game. They were dedicating the court in his name so obviously Steve wanted to be there and so we played them on the road. If thats your guys argument on why the Zags should be allowed in then you guys really are a few shrimp short of a cocktail.

[BillikensWin]

I get where you're coming from Redman (value when teams are down), but I'm not sure how it applies.

The Big East is trying to be the best basketball conference in the country. To that end, you are right...some teams have to lose. That said, I think the upside play is more important than the downside. Which schools have the best chance of improving the image of the Big East nationally, and can those schools fit into the league? FS1 is on the basic 2 tier in most of St. Louis already, so the market actually works against SLU here.

I think expansion is done now, and Ms. Ackerman can concentrate on making the league better with the 10 teams she has.

[TheHall]

Regionalism is dead? Are you sure about that?

Also we played at SF because Lavins father was being honored at that game. They were dedicating the court in his name so obviously Steve wanted to be there and so we played them on the road. If thats your guys argument on why the Zags should be allowed in then you guys really are a few shrimp short of a cocktail.

Redman, I'm old school BE (late 80s). I'm so pro BE that even though I graduated from RU I still hate them (men's bball-wise) because I grew up a playing bball on the Seton Hall campus & became a Pirate bball fan in grade school. My point is the "regionalism is dead" comment doesn't make me happy but I just let it go after WVU & VT got in (I loved Miami getting in- road-trip!) Heck the only place the BE hasn't been over the past 20 years is the West Coast. I say let's stop letting all the WC talent go unfought for to the likes of Oregon & USC & Arizona st, etc. Gonzaga could be our gateway, just like the BE has become Creighton's gateway to the EC.

You got to admit though that if there's 3 things this wave of realignment has proved its: Rivalries are an unimportant, geography is irrelevant, and the importance of winning is for a given school is debatable (RU/Missou fb). TV $$ with the potential to make even more TV $$ going forward is all that matters.

[NJRedman]

Regionalism is dead? Are you sure about that?

Also we played at SF because Lavins father was being honored at that game. They were dedicating the court in his name so obviously Steve wanted to be there and so we played them on the road. If thats your guys argument on why the Zags should be allowed in then you guys really are a few shrimp short of a cocktail.

Redman, I'm old school BE (late 80s). I'm so pro BE that even though I graduated from RU I still hate them (men's bball-wise) because I grew up a playing bball on the Seton Hall campus & became a Pirate bball fan in grade school. My point is the "regionalism is dead" comment doesn't make me happy but I just let it go after WVU & VT got in (I loved Miami getting in- road-trip!) Heck the only place the BE hasn't been over the past 20 years is the West Coast. I say let's stop letting all the WC talent go unfought for to the likes of Oregon & USC & Arizona st, etc. Gonzaga could be our gateway, just like the BE has become Creighton's gateway to the EC.

You got to admit though that if there's 3 things this wave of realignment has proved its: Rivalries are an unimportant, geography is irrelevant, and the importance of winning is for a given school is debatable (RU/Missou fb). TV $$ with the potential to make even more TV $$ going forward is all that matters.

I disagree, geography is irrelevant to the desperate. Those who have options don't tend to throw out geography. The successful conferences have expanded into neighboring regions like the B1G to the North East, the ACC to the North East and the SEC into Texarkana. The desperate without many options are the ones who have thrown out geography. The old Big East adding TCU, Boise and San Diego, the Pac-10 trying to bring in the texas and oklahoma schools, the sun belt adding new mexico and idaho.

We have reliable options, we don't NEED to expand west any further than Creighton.

A school in Spokane will not open up the talent from California to us. Thats like saying Creighton can now recruit Florida players easier. How? Each coast is pretty big.

[TheHall]

Regionalism is dead? Are you sure about that?

Also we played at SF because Lavins father was being honored at that game. They were dedicating the court in his name so obviously Steve wanted to be there and so we played them on the road. If thats your guys argument on why the Zags should be allowed in then you guys really are a few shrimp short of a cocktail.

Redman, I'm old school BE (late 80s). I'm so pro BE that even though I graduated from RU I still hate them (men's bball-wise) because I grew up a playing bball on the Seton Hall campus & became a Pirate bball fan in grade school. My point is the "regionalism is dead" comment doesn't make me happy but I just let it go after WVU & VT got in (I loved Miami getting in- road-trip!) Heck the only place the BE hasn't been over the past 20 years is the West Coast. I say let's stop letting all the WC talent go unfought for to the likes of Oregon & USC & Arizona st, etc. Gonzaga could be our gateway, just like the BE has become Creighton's gateway to the EC.

You got to admit though that if there's 3 things this wave of realignment has proved its: Rivalries are an unimportant, geography is irrelevant, and the importance of winning is for a given school is debatable (RU/Missou fb). TV $$ with the potential to make even more TV $$ going forward is all that matters.

I disagree, geography is irrelevant to the desperate. Those who have options don't tend to throw out geography. The successful conferences have expanded into neighboring regions like the B1G to the North East, the ACC to the North East and the SEC into Texarkana. The desperate without many options are the ones who have thrown out geography. The old Big East adding TCU, Boise and San Diego, the Pac-10 trying to bring in the texas and oklahoma schools, the sun belt adding new mexico and idaho.

We have reliable options, we don't NEED to expand west any further than Creighton.

A school in Spokane will not open up the talent from California to us. Thats like saying Creighton can now recruit Florida players easier. How? Each coast is pretty big.

How do you know a school ON the west coast won't open up the west coast for the rest of the league? What logic are you basing that on. We already know that CU in year one recruited Devin Brooks to Nebraska partially on the idea that he would play games back home on the east coast?

Also I ind your logic of geography by conference weak. Saying the B1G expansion (as a whole) makes since geographically ignores the fact of RU playing road games in Wisconsin & Iowa & Minnesota for all sports year round (doesn't sound geographically logical for RU fans) same with all the B1G schools coming out to Maryland & Jersey for all sports. You think the SEC makes geographic sense too, ignoring the distance between Florida/SC & Missouri.

Convenient usage of the word desperate where it suits your bashing of "non-power" conferences for doing exactly the same thing the others are- chasing the $$. Calling any of these government protected conferences "desperate" is so deep in the cool aid it's not funny. They are all more like greedy than desperate.

Watching you keep masking a personal dislike for the Zags behind a legit debate around the changing dynamics of realignment is getting boring. Like I said $$ is what this is all about. Of course feel free to respond but I'm done pissing the Commish off by hijacking her thread.

[BEwannabe]

Interesting points made by both Redmen & Hall. My take is Gonzaga would not have an interest in this basketball centric conference unless there is a significant west coast division. I just don't see a compelling reason for the Zags to have interest so I can't even begin to address the pros/cons of an add like Gonzaga but like I said, good points on both sides of the debate.

But to Bill Marsh is you like the Zags OOC then you must love the Dayton Flyers, I don't have the time to put the list together but over this same time frame the Flyers have wins against UNC, Louisville (2), Georgia tech, Ohio State, Syracuse , Stanford, Pittsburgh, New Mexico, Cincinnati, Alabama, Auburn, Ol Miss, Illinois, Murray St., Akron ( LOL ) , Big east Creighton, Hall, Marquette. Not including conference wins like SLU, X, at Temple, UMASS, UD also had a win versus Zags last year.

[Bill Marsh]

I agree with you that Dayton and VCU would likely bring fans to the BE tournament, which is very important and represents assets for them as candidates.

I disagree that St Louis brings a big market. They are in a big market but someone is going to have to show me that they actually bring that market. 15 years ago they drew great attendance but their attendance has steadily declined since that high point. The only thing you can say about their location is that they get the Big East into that market. How well the conference might sell there remains to be seen.

I disagree with your point that a program is measured by what it brings in its down years. No one brings much during their down years. A program is measured more by its ability to sustain a quality program over long periods of time, which reflects a level of commitment by the college. It also helps to have shown some ability to hit high points from time to time.

If you can't use the past as the best estimate of where a program will be in the future, then there is absolutely no objective information by which to evaluate any program. Gonzaga has sustained a successful program for more than 16 years under 2 different coaches. I would think that nodes well for the future. Success can be seen not only in their 16 tournament wins over the past 16 years but also the fact that they sell out every home game every year. Like Providence and Creighton, they are the pro franchise in town, the focus of local sports interest.

Forget about what Gonzaga has done in the WCC as a measure of their quality. Look at the big wins they have put up year after year:

2014 - Arkansas, @West Virginia, BYU twice, Oklahoma State
2013 - West Virginia, Clemson, Oklahoma, Davidson, Kansas State, Baylor, @OK State, @BYU, BYU
2012 - Notre Dame, Arizona, Butler, @Xavier, @BYU, BYU, West Virginia
2011 - Marquette, Baylor, Xavier, Oklahoma State, @Wake Forest, St. John's
2010 - Wisconsin, Cincinnati, Davidson, Oklahoma, @Illinois, Memphis, Florida State
2009 - Oklahoma State, Maryland, @Tennessee, Tennessee, Indiana, Akron, Western Kentucky
2008 - Western Kentucky, VA Tech, @St. Joe's, UConn, Utah, Georgia
2007 - Baylor, @North Carolina, @Texas, Washington, @Stanford
2006 - @Maryland, @Michigan State, Oklahoma State, Virginia, St Louis, St. Joe's, Stanford, Xavier, Indiana
2005 - Washington, UMass, St Louis, Georgia Tech, @Oklahoma State, Winthrop

That's the last 10 years. I could continue but the trend is the same. The point is that they have NOT built their reputation simply on winning the WCC. They have scheduled aggressively OOC and have won more than their share against big time opponents. That kind of program brings value.

Except when it comes to our TV partners, it's not about how many people tune in but getting their channel on the basic tier in that market. It's about the potential. You think the B1G added Rutgers because they can get 3-4 million people to tune in? No, it's because they are actually in the TV market and thats all that matters. Not trying to be a dick but this stuff has been hashed out over and over again during the decade of conference realignment.

Winthrop is a big win for the Zags? WKU? Akron? Davidson? C'mon dude. Also some OOC wins doesn't mean that the Zags can hang game in and game out in the BE. ***EDIT*** Also some of those P5 schools are a joke. Arkansas, Va Tech, Georgia, WVU the last two seasons etc. Oh and BYU is a WCC opponent the last two seasons.

Oh and what you bring to the table when you are down is definitely a consideration. Anyone can bring money to the table when they are good, but guess what? Everyone has down periods, even the best of the best (UK, UCLA, UNC, Indiana). You can't add 12 top level programs and say that they will all succeed. Someone has to lose the games, and those who do still need to bring something to the league. DePaul brings the Chicago market and a good recruiting ground, Seton Hall brings part of the NYC market and a good recruiting ground etc.

Once again, what do the Zags bring to the table if they struggle in the league? Spokane might be bigger than Providence but that doesn't mean much to Fox and it isn't a great recruiting ground. What do they bring to the table? Prestige? They can lose that quite quickly if they struggle. You think ESPN will still treat them kindly once they join up? Not a chance in hell.

If you follow college basketball,then you know that the Winthrop win WAS a big win that year. That was the team coached by Gregg Marshall, you know, the guy who took wichita State to the Final four and then an undefeated regular season. Same with the other mid majors, which were all NCAA tournament wins and which were all very good teams.

What does Creighton bring to the table in down years? Providence?