Commissioner "Val"

[NJRedman]

I just don't believe that the conference has gone down so much that we need a finished product or "perfect" school to consider for expansion and that's a good thing because there aren't any out there at the moment. In the new Big East, if a school becomes a bottom dweller its not just on that school it's on the conference too. Everyone is working to get this league back to the top & $$ doesn't seem to be an issue. Every member's ability to recruit, hire big time coaches, be seen on tv, get corporate support, & overall cash flow is increased entering the BE. Thinking that Gonzaga is going to fail if they have all those new assets & support just seems like chicken little fear mongering.

Personally I don't think any of the main schools being discussed will fail or cause the league to fail. This has just been a conversation about who would help the most for me. The conversation you seem to be having is who is at risk of failing the most. A fair point but the conference has to be bold to come out on top in the long run not fearful IMO.

Chicken little fear mongering? You must not have a job where tough choices must be made. Risk assessment is definitely an important thing to do in the business world. There are risks adding a school that is on the west coast for a conference who is NE/Mid-west based. If you can't understand that then i'm just wasting my breathe trying to have this conversation.

The value of an expansion candidate is about how much value they bring to the league even when they have a down stretch. Anyone can bring value when they are winning but the truly valuable bring value when they are losing. Everyone has down periods even the blue bloods like UCLA, UNC and UK. Thats the issue we are talking about, thats what you are failing to grasp. The Zags will have a big increase in travel and competition, those are big factors they would have to deal with. You writing them off as just people "hating" "fear mongering" or being a "chicken little" just shows how little you understand of the expansion process.

Even if SLU struggles they bring a top level media market with them which makes our TV contract more valuable. Even if Dayton struggles they still bring a big fan base who will travel to NYC for the BET and are also in a good size TV market. If VCU struggles they have a fan base who can easily travel to the BET and brings in the Richmond/VA TV market. So i'll ask again, what does Gonzaga bring to the table if they struggle?

Not sure how old you are but the Big East was founded on being bold, it was greed that took down the old league not poor risk assessment. Going with FOX vs. ESPN was bold. Gonzaga has been relevant through the past 2 decades coming out of the WCC of all places, through multiple coaches, plenty of BE squads can't say that. The Zags belong in the conversation.

Btw as an IE I don't usual make decisions off of risk assessment ("worst case" planning), but instead risk/reward based on a certain level of confidence...Like what if SJU never gets it turned around in the BE's largest market. That had to be on FOX's risk/reward model. They probably figured well at least Seton Hall increases their chances to be successful there too

Bold and reckless are not the same thing. Adding teams willy nilly is not the way to successfully run a conference. You continue to dodge my questions. What does Gonzaga bring to the table if they struggle in the Big East? Past results are not a indication of future success, especially when you are trying to compare the WCC to the BE.

[Bill Marsh]

Chicken little fear mongering? You must not have a job where tough choices must be made. Risk assessment is definitely an important thing to do in the business world. There are risks adding a school that is on the west coast for a conference who is NE/Mid-west based. If you can't understand that then i'm just wasting my breathe trying to have this conversation.

The value of an expansion candidate is about how much value they bring to the league even when they have a down stretch. Anyone can bring value when they are winning but the truly valuable bring value when they are losing. Everyone has down periods even the blue bloods like UCLA, UNC and UK. Thats the issue we are talking about, thats what you are failing to grasp. The Zags will have a big increase in travel and competition, those are big factors they would have to deal with. You writing them off as just people "hating" "fear mongering" or being a "chicken little" just shows how little you understand of the expansion process.

Even if SLU struggles they bring a top level media market with them which makes our TV contract more valuable. Even if Dayton struggles they still bring a big fan base who will travel to NYC for the BET and are also in a good size TV market. If VCU struggles they have a fan base who can easily travel to the BET and brings in the Richmond/VA TV market. So i'll ask again, what does Gonzaga bring to the table if they struggle?

Not sure how old you are but the Big East was founded on being bold, it was greed that took down the old league not poor risk assessment. Going with FOX vs. ESPN was bold. Gonzaga has been relevant through the past 2 decades coming out of the WCC of all places, through multiple coaches, plenty of BE squads can't say that. The Zags belong in the conversation.

Btw as an IE I don't usual make decisions off of risk assessment ("worst case" planning), but instead risk/reward based on a certain level of confidence...Like what if SJU never gets it turned around in the BE's largest market. That had to be on FOX's risk/reward model. They probably figured well at least Seton Hall increases their chances to be successful there too

Bold and reckless are not the same thing. Adding teams willy nilly is not the way to successfully run a conference. You continue to dodge my questions. What does Gonzaga bring to the table if they struggle in the Big East? Past results are not a indication of future success, especially when you are trying to compare the WCC to the BE.

I agree with you that Dayton and VCU would likely bring fans to the BE tournament, which is very important and represents assets for them as candidates.

I disagree that St Louis brings a big market. They are in a big market but someone is going to have to show me that they actually bring that market. 15 years ago they drew great attendance but their attendance has steadily declined since that high point. The only thing you can say about their location is that they get the Big East into that market. How well the conference might sell there remains to be seen.

I disagree with your point that a program is measured by what it brings in its down years. No one brings much during their down years. A program is measured more by its ability to sustain a quality program over long periods of time, which reflects a level of commitment by the college. It also helps to have shown some ability to hit high points from time to time.

If you can't use the past as the best estimate of where a program will be in the future, then there is absolutely no objective information by which to evaluate any program. Gonzaga has sustained a successful program for more than 16 years under 2 different coaches. I would think that nodes well for the future. Success can be seen not only in their 16 tournament wins over the past 16 years but also the fact that they sell out every home game every year. Like Providence and Creighton, they are the pro franchise in town, the focus of local sports interest.

Forget about what Gonzaga has done in the WCC as a measure of their quality. Look at the big wins they have put up year after year:

2014 - Arkansas, @West Virginia, BYU twice, Oklahoma State
2013 - West Virginia, Clemson, Oklahoma, Davidson, Kansas State, Baylor, @OK State, @BYU, BYU
2012 - Notre Dame, Arizona, Butler, @Xavier, @BYU, BYU, West Virginia
2011 - Marquette, Baylor, Xavier, Oklahoma State, @Wake Forest, St. John's
2010 - Wisconsin, Cincinnati, Davidson, Oklahoma, @Illinois, Memphis, Florida State
2009 - Oklahoma State, Maryland, @Tennessee, Tennessee, Indiana, Akron, Western Kentucky
2008 - Western Kentucky, VA Tech, @St. Joe's, UConn, Utah, Georgia
2007 - Baylor, @North Carolina, @Texas, Washington, @Stanford
2006 - @Maryland, @Michigan State, Oklahoma State, Virginia, St Louis, St. Joe's, Stanford, Xavier, Indiana
2005 - Washington, UMass, St Louis, Georgia Tech, @Oklahoma State, Winthrop

That's the last 10 years. I could continue but the trend is the same. The point is that they have NOT built their reputation simply on winning the WCC. They have scheduled aggressively OOC and have won more than their share against big time opponents. That kind of program brings value.

[Bill Marsh]

travel is not just distance. It's time zones. St John's plays a Thursday night game in Spokane, they have 0% chance of getting back for a Friday class. St John's plays at Dayton or SLU even- and there's a pretty solid chance the kids are back in time for the class.

You're breaking my heart. Last year St. John's scheduled a road trip vs San Francisco on a Tuesday night. Let them substitute the trip to Spokane for the trip to San Fran and find an OOC opponent closer to home instead.

[DudeAnon]

I just can't get over adding a school from the West Coast to the "Big EAST" and I think most school AD's feel the same way.

[Bill Marsh]

Don't you see that you're proving my point for me? The Zags would have to take on the burden of that travel and look at what that did to WVU who isn't nearly a far from the Big XII as the Zags are from the BE. They could easily falter and struggle dealing with all that travel. That is a legit concern and a realistic possibility.

Yes, I agree that it's a legitimate concern for Gonzaga, but that doesn't explain why it's such a big concern for a St. John's fan or for the rest of the league.

As for the Zags, they're willing to do it because they already have to fly everywhere they go and therefore they have their own charter for all their teams because they have long distances currently. They also have to add extra trips right now to the Midwest, the South, and the East to improve their strength of schedule, something which would not be an issue with a Big East schedule.

The thing which I'm having a hard time getting you to see is that air miles are not the same as road miles. The longest trip facing the Zags is Providence, which is less than 2400 miles. At 600 mph in the air, it's the same amount of time in the air as a 240 mile trip by bus from NYC to Syracuse - without traffic. No one would complain about a bus trip to Syracuse and it was routinely done for years by many NYC teams - not to mention that aside from a nearby school like Colgate, Syracuse had to bus all its teams long distances forever because there was no one else close to them. Think about the distances Maine had to bus every single one of their teams forever. It takes 3 hours just to get out of the state when you drive south from Orono. And all of this was done for more than half a century from such places before they laid a single mile of interstate highway, making such trips twice as long.

I'm not saying that long distance travel isn't an issue for Gonzaga. It is. But it's an issue for them right now and they're doing it in a mid major conference with mid major revenue. Half the conference is already more than a 1000-1200 miles away from them in Southern California.

I'm sure that Gonzaga knows that their are many ways of scheduling to lessen the impact of the worst of such travel, e.g. play 2-3 road games on the same trip and include women's games in that same trip, schedule the longest trips around vacations and holidays, schedule divisional play so road trips to all East Coast schools don't occur every year.

Why do I care? Well because I'd rather have a team who can contribute to the league. If the Zags can't handle the travel and become a bottom dweller than that brings zero value to the league. They aren't in a big market, aren't in a great recruiting ground, aren't in a city full of conference alum and will bring very few fans to the BET. Where is the upside in have a Zags team that struggles? If they struggle then we can't count on all that past success they've had. I don't know why you are saying the milage didn't work for WVU but it will for the Zags. It's not just the miles but time zones. Traveling north and south is not even close to the same as traveling east and west.

The best options for the conference if/when it chooses to expand are SLU, Dayton and VCU. The Zags just aren't in the cards now, and won't be until 4 or 5 fellow west coast private schools get their acts together and raise their profile enough for a full on western wing can be a legitimate option.

You're getting very hypothetical with your "IFs". Gonzaga is one of the most well established programs in the country over the past 2 decades and has become a household name in college basketball. That DOES contribute to the league.

Spokane is a city of 200,000, comparable to Rochester and larger than Syracuse or Providence. It's not like Gonzaga is in some remote location, stuck in a small college town.

I said that the mileage will work for the Zags? Not me. It's Gonzaga themselves who is saying that. I'm simply taking them at their word. And their word is good for me because they've been playing a national schedule for well over a decade now. They routinely schedule themselves into tournaments and OOC games all over the country as well facing a conference schedule that requires a lot of travel already. Nonetheless, they've been a consistent winner even with all that travel.

I hear that you prefer other options for expansion. You're entitled, but I disagree. Gonzaga and VCU are the 2 best candidates. St Louis and Dayton simply do not have well established track records at this point. Gonzaga is workable for the conference, requiring one western trip per year max. Gonzaga's willing to make it work on their end, so I don't see the problem.

[Bill Marsh]

I just can't get over adding a school from the West Coast to the "Big EAST" and I think most school AD's feel the same way.

I have no idea how most ADsfeel and I don't really care. They aren't the ones who'll be making this decision. The presidents will be making it in consultation where their TV partners at Fox.

We've all had to adjust to expanded conference footprints. This would be just one more on a long list.

[BillikensWin]

It's been awhile since I've seen a Bill Marsh slamming Saint Louis post.

Boy, I sure missed them.

[BillikensWin]

I will give Bill credit...he does have some good info...just very negative at times.

[Bill Marsh]

I will give Bill credit...he does have some good info...just very negative at times.

I truly apologize for being negative about St Louis. I actually like you guys and will not be upset if SLU is added. I'm calling it like I see it. It's just an opinion & I'll be the first to admit that I may be wrong.

BTW, can you tell me what a Billiken is? A friend asked me and I couldn't answer. Someone posted an explanation a while ago, but it didn't sound quite right.

[BillikensWin]

http://www.billikens.com/billiken

That's from the school's site by way of Billikens.com.