Commissioner "Val"

[Bill Marsh]

How am I losing it? You're the one who brought up UConn, not me. Don't know why you tried to compare them to the Zags, but that was all you.

Never said Butler wasn't a good addition, now who wants to talk about straw men?

16 NCAA bids can be explained very easily. They play in a crappy conference with no real threat to their throne. It's a 1 MAYBE 2 bid league every year.

How is looking into the future hating? Just because you have a giant hard on for the Zags doesn't mean everyone has to look through your rose colored glasses. Why don't you answer my question that I have posted many many times. What happens if they can't cut it and become an also ran or even worse, a bottom dweller? What do we do then with an albatross around our necks thats 3000 miles away? You seem to dodge that question and say it's not based on fact. Well Butler struggled, why can't the Zags? Creighton is looking at a rough next season, why couldn't the same be true for the Zags? Your assumption that because they dominated a weak WCC that they can compete year in and year out in the Big East is less likely than my scenario.

Oh and they were the #1 team in the country with the #1 overall seed and was still passed up for membership. It seems that the presidents agree with me more than they do with you.

First of all, they're not 3000 miles away. They're about 2000 air miles for East Coast schools. 2190 from NYC, closer for everyone else except Providence.

Second, college presidents didn't get where they are because they're good businessmen. They're notoriously conservative in their decision making. The fact that they couldn't see their way to adding Gonzaga the first time around doesn't mean they won't in the future.

Third, 16 bids can't simply be explained by being in a crappy conference. If your theory is correct, you must be able to show me another program in a crappy conference with 16 consecutive bids. Please, be my guest.

Fourth, Gonzaga is simply not an albatross. They have a rabid fan base that sells out every game. That isn't going away overnight even if they have some bad seasons. They're like Providence, or Creighton, or Dayton. They're the "pro" franchise in town. Fans will attend their games in good times and bad. That's good for the conference. Furthermore, they've become a household name, which means that people turn on games that they play in, which helps with TV ratings and is good for marketing the conference.

Fifth, Gonzaga is simply one long road trip a year at most. This is the 21st century with jet planes that travel 500-600 miles per hour. I guarantee you that Gonzaga is a shorter, more comfortable road trip these days than NYC to Buffalo was by bus 50 years ago when that was an 8 hour trip. There were plenty of those kinds of bus trips all over the country in the past. Before the interstate highway system was built, they were a nightmare. And before that, travel was by train which was even longer. Yet teams did it all the time. there is nothing that makes this as burdensome as you make it sound for anyone other than Gonzaga themselves. And they have spoken on the subject. They have no problem with it and would love to join the Big East.

Frankly I can't find one negative about adding them.

Well thats because you aren't living in reality.

Why do you keep bring up these imaginary bus trips to Buffalo 50 years ago? 50 years ago it was harder to get anywhere, WTF does that have to do with anything? We're talking about cross country flights, not traveling within the same state. There are things called "time-zones", and in them it is a different time than all the others. It's a really wonderful thing that is based on the way the earth spins, but thats a different story.

You have no evidence they will show up in bad times, by your own admission they have been awesome for 16 years, so right there you are talking out of your ass. Also, they aren't like Creighton or Dayton, those schools are top ten and top 25 in attendance, the Zags aren't close to that.

Just because no other Mid-Major conference has had a team dominate it, that doesn't mean that the WCC is a tough league or that the Zags are a powerhouse. I can't believe i'm agreeing with Stever but his post is correct about their lack of NCAA success compared to other (some former) Mid-Major schools like Butler, X, WSU or even VCU. I would bet that if you replaced in any team that finished fourth in the nBE any given year with the Zags they would easily win the conference.

I'm sorry to have to explain the obvious to you, but the bus trips to Buffalo are relevant because schools did them. Routinely. Which means that trips to Spokane which take less time are also doable on a college schedule. Yes (sigh) there are time zones. And businessmen who fly all over the country deal with them every week. A trip of that length regardless of the time zones means that you have to leave a day in advance. And you have to have a travel day on the back end as well. That gives you time to adjust to the change in time zones. It's not like we're forging new territory here. In the 21st century, this kind of travel is commonplace.

And the travel is once a year per team. At most. This road trip simply replace the longest one already on your schedule. East Coast teams - even women's teams - are routinely playing games in California and in tournaments in Hawaii and Alaska. But a team can't make one road trip a year to Spokane?

I don't have evidence they'll show up in bad times? And you don't have any evidence they won't. You're the one bringing up the hypothetical "what if". Not me. There's a problem with any school if they go in the toilet. BTW, how's the attendance at St. John's? Not what it used to be, I hear.

Your first instincts are right about agreeing with Steve. The real fact is that Gonzaga has not lacked NCAA tournament success. During their 16 year run, they've been to 5 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8. How many current Big East schools have done that over the past 16 years?

Let me repeat my point about their success again so you can understand it because I never said anything remotely related to your straw man argument that Gonzaga's domination of the WCC shows it to be a tough league. In fact, I agreed with Steve on that point. The point of my comment was Gonzaga's CONSISTENCY. Regardless of how weak the league, no one in the country has had Gonzaga's CONSISTENCY. Regardless of the level of the competition, that says that Gonzaga is a special program. And they haven't gotten to the tournament just on WCC auto ids. They've also gotten their at large, which means that they've been winning games OOC to establish their credentials.

Frankly, the burden is on you to come up with a better candidate for expansion. Who do ya got?

[DudeAnon]

Ahem, X has gone to 5 Sweet 16s and 2 elite 8s in past 10 years.

that being said, I say wait for schools to get desperate, AAC schools basically. If none of them want in, then poach the A-10, Zags would be a hard swallow for me. But they are definitely better than any A 10 schools.

[Bill Marsh]

And Butler dominated the Horizon league, that doesn't mean they were able to come right in and continue to be a top flight program. If Doug Mc didn't come back Creighton would have struggled as well after dominating the MVC. Dominating a 1-2 bid league is not the same as being a legit top tier program.

That kid said he wanted to play in the NCAA tourney, so he went to a team that dominates a mid-major conference.

You can't even compare the Zags to UConn, the Huskies have been in a legit conference every year since 1979. Even this season they were competing with programs like UofL and Memphis.

Spokane is the Alabama of the Pacific Northwest. One of co-workers is from up there. It's all about hunting, riding off road vehicles and being a redneck. It's beautiful but not even close to bring similar to most of the leagues culture. Oh and it's 3000 miles from half the league.

There's your Butler comparison Redman & your straw man argument too. No one claimed the Zags would come in and dominate, but to make it seem like the Zags couldn't compete in the BE or that they aren't a bigger brand than SLU, VCU, Dayton or any of the other likely candidates is pure hating. Besides the Zags & all those potential candidates have characteristics that will get instantly improved if they join the BE, recruiting being a major one. Just look at the recruits & transfers CU & BU are attracting after 1 year. Now you're telling me that the Zags brand in combination with the BE brand isn't more valuable than Dayton (no offense) or the others.

Btw I'm still waiting for you to show me where I compared Uconn's BE resume to the Zags

My straw man argument? I'm pretty sure Butler had the better program coming out of the one bid league than the Zags and they struggled, yet you say the Zags won't or can't?

Trying to have a realistic geographic footprint is now called hating? Thinking a school thats 2000 miles away could fall off is now hating? Do you know what that word means? Do you understand how it's used in popular culture today?

The Horizon truly is a one bid league, but the West Coast is not. It's definitely more competitive than the Horizon. With the addition of BYU 3 years ago, a program that has been to the tournament 7 times in the past 10 years, they are now even stronger than they were before.

[Irishdawg]

Let's not pretend like last year's Butler roster was even good compared to when they were in the Horizon League, and I say that as a Butler fan. The injury to Jones didn't help, but I doubt they would have even won the Horizon last year with the offense they had. Now this year's freshmen and Tyler Lewis should help them start to be more competitive in the league as long as they don't all leave like this year's group, but Butler and Gonzaga aren't even comparable in terms of individual talent and athleticism. The Zags have major size and the athletes to compete against teams in the Big East, and Butler's still not there yet.

[TheHall]

My straw man argument? I'm pretty sure Butler had the better program coming out of the one bid league than the Zags and they struggled, yet you say the Zags won't or can't?

Trying to have a realistic geographic footprint is now called hating? Thinking a school thats 2000 miles away could fall off is now hating? Do you know what that word means? Do you understand how it's used in popular culture today?

I'll move on from hating. If your goal is to old on to the old idea of the BE actually being all northeastern schools I can respect that as nostalgia. But you and I know that hasn't been true since Miami & WVU joined the conference back in the 90s. But if that is your argument I don't get why you have to dog out a legit program like Gonzaga (and state) to make your point.

[TheHall]

There's your Butler comparison Redman & your straw man argument too. No one claimed the Zags would come in and dominate, but to make it seem like the Zags couldn't compete in the BE or that they aren't a bigger brand than SLU, VCU, Dayton or any of the other likely candidates is pure hating. Besides the Zags & all those potential candidates have characteristics that will get instantly improved if they join the BE, recruiting being a major one. Just look at the recruits & transfers CU & BU are attracting after 1 year. Now you're telling me that the Zags brand in combination with the BE brand isn't more valuable than Dayton (no offense) or the others.

Btw I'm still waiting for you to show me where I compared Uconn's BE resume to the Zags

Completely agree.

I have to wonder why UConn is even in this conversation. How are they relevant? Is someone actually holding out hopes that they'll join the Big East? That's even crazier than hoping for Gonzaga. They just hired the hottest assistant football coach in the country. They didn't do that so they could move their football program to independence or the Sun Belt, either of which would be a disaster for them.

And what's with the cultural similarities or dissimilarities? They're a Jesuit school. I think that gives them a lot in common right off the bat. How are they any different than Creighton culturally? Regardless, this is a basketball conference. They're a basketball school. That's enough to have in common.

To be fair I mentioned them & Memphis. But I mentioned them as not realistic options. You already know I get its a pipe dream but until 11 & 12 (13 & 14?) are chosen or until Uconn moves to a real conference I'll keep hope alive. Those two programs aside the Zags are easily the premier realistic "unaffiliated" bball brand out there. And I agree the Zags (along with XU & UNLV back in the day) have been the flag bearer for programs like Creighton, VCU, Wichita St., St. Mary's, Dayton, George Mason, Richmond, Drexel, SLU, etc. Those "mid-majors" that have shown the potential to play with the big boys if they got a shot and the same resources.

[TheHall]

Let's not pretend like last year's Butler roster was even good compared to when they were in the Horizon League, and I say that as a Butler fan. The injury to Jones didn't help, but I doubt they would have even won the Horizon last year with the offense they had. Now this year's freshmen and Tyler Lewis should help them start to be more competitive in the league as long as they don't all leave like this year's group, but Butler and Gonzaga aren't even comparable in terms of individual talent and athleticism. The Zags have major size and the athletes to compete against teams in the Big East, and Butler's still not there yet.

BU even lost one of if not it's biggest asset, the old coach, before the "B" in Big East could be painted on that beautiful home court. We can't honestly say if BU gets the invite if that guy leaves before the ink dried on the expansion papers.

That aside BU's recruiting this year has been legit, especially for a new unproven coach. I think Kelan Martin will be a top 3-5 freshman in a loaded BE freshman class next year.

[stever20]

If Gonzaga had the recent NCAA chops that Butler or even Xavier had- it'd be a lot easier to take them in being so far away. But the fact is they don't and they are still far away.

Also, while Bill is right in the past 16 years they have 5 sweet 16's and an elite 8- 3 of the sweet 16's and the elite 8 were in the first 3 years of the run. Last 13 years it's 2 sweet 16's and 0 elite 8's.

If the first 3 years were the last 3 years- it's a different story. But fact is- it's not been. Gonzaga has choked in the tourney numerous times in the last 13 years(still remember that game with UCLA with Adam Morrison 8 years ago(knew it was a few years back- when I looked I'm like wow- that far back). Just look last year when they were a #1 seed and lost to Wichita in the 2nd round. Gonzaga hasn't beaten a single team seeded higher than a 6 in the last 13 years and also lost to lower seeded teams 5 times in those 13 years. Part of Gonzaga's problem is that schools like Butler, VCU, GMU, and Wichita have spoiled it now for Gonzaga(same can be said for Xavier, but given Xavier's location- they were easily getting in).

Also, the bigger problem is for Gonzaga to work, you would have to get a 2nd western school to have a travel partner. That's just silly. No one to fill that role(and if you say BYU- no way- FBS football).

[stever20]

Let's not pretend like last year's Butler roster was even good compared to when they were in the Horizon League, and I say that as a Butler fan. The injury to Jones didn't help, but I doubt they would have even won the Horizon last year with the offense they had. Now this year's freshmen and Tyler Lewis should help them start to be more competitive in the league as long as they don't all leave like this year's group, but Butler and Gonzaga aren't even comparable in terms of individual talent and athleticism. The Zags have major size and the athletes to compete against teams in the Big East, and Butler's still not there yet.

BU even lost one of if not it's biggest asset, the old coach, before the "B" in Big East could be painted on that beautiful home court. We can't honestly say if BU gets the invite if that guy leaves before the ink dried on the expansion papers.

That aside BU's recruiting this year has been legit, especially for a new unproven coach. I think Kelan Martin will be a top 3-5 freshman in a loaded BE freshman class next year.

It's an interesting thought about Butler. If Stevens had left in March and the announcement happened in April- it's quite possibly very different.

[Irishdawg]

BU even lost one of if not it's biggest asset, the old coach, before the "B" in Big East could be painted on that beautiful home court. We can't honestly say if BU gets the invite if that guy leaves before the ink dried on the expansion papers.

That aside BU's recruiting this year has been legit, especially for a new unproven coach. I think Kelan Martin will be a top 3-5 freshman in a loaded BE freshman class next year.

If he had left before the announcement was made, I don't think Butler gets the invite.

I do think Butler's recruiting has gotten better because of the conference affiliation, but part of it too is that Miller is a MUCH better recruiter than Stevens and was one of the guys that helped bring in Hayward and Mack's class into Butler. For as great of an X's and O's guy as Stevens was (and he was one of the best in the college game), he hated the recruiting aspect of being a college coach, which is why I think him in the NBA makes a lot of sense. Now Miller's got a lot of growing to do in designing effective plays and making sure his guys are ready to run it, but he has done a pretty good job with the 2014 class, especially given his timing of coming onto the staff (April), getting hired as the head coach (July), trying to catch up with recruits that he'd never had contact with previously and his unproven track record and then the tough go of it the first season.

I think Martin and Davis could be good players in the Big East, though I'm not sure they'd be in the top 3-5 freshman when you consider guys like Isaiah Whitehead, Trevon Bluiett, Angel Delgado and Isaac Copeland who are likely going to be instant impact guys while Martin and Davis, with the positions they play probably are going to be getting similar minutes to guys like Paschal Chukwu, Ronnie Harrell and others. This class of Big East freshmen is DEEP. Wideman's a guy who is intriguing. He's definitely got the size to play in this league, but I'll be interested to see what his role is on the team since I don't see him as someone with a great offensive skillset. Is it November yet?