UMass football & MAC parting ways after 2015 season

[notkirkcameron]

I didn't think this way before, but I really think another shakeup is coming soon in light of this story and the ACC vs. Maryland situation. We have to be the predator, not the prey this round. We secured some very good programs but we need more. Let's snatch up Wichita State while they are red hot to capitalize on the recruiting and branding. Let's take Dayton, VCU, and STL. That gives us 14 teams.

Villanova/ DePaul
SJ / Marquette
SHU / PC
Creighton/ Wichita St.
G'Town / Dayton
Xavier / VCU
Butler / St. Louis

That is a pretty damn formidable conference. At worst it's rock solid. At best it's a 6-8 bid league. We have better odds that one of WSU, STL, Dayton, or VCU will not drop off. This brings more fans to MSG for the tourney, a larger following, a larger audience for FS1, and definitely raises the profile IMO. I'm very worried that Val is way too submissive. She has not been vocal and she has not been aggressive so far. The AAC can easily snatch the rest of the talent out there and then we are stuck. This brings some great rivalries Dayton v. Xavier, Wichita St. v. Creighton, etc.

Breathe into a paper bag, chicken little. The sky is not falling.

1.) There's already an expansion thread where the four programs you mentioned have already been discussed at length, and
2.) After 130+ pages, the consensus I got was that there may be one or two good reasons to add all of them, but there's no compelling reason to add any of them.
3.) Please detail how Val Ackerman has "not been aggressive." Why? Because she hasn't expanded the league? It's still the first year, for God's sake. You want to expand for the sake of expanding.
4.) The AAC is not going to add Wichita, VCU, Dayton, and SLU. I mean, a hybrid football/basketball model worked out so well for them last time, right? Get real. None of those programs are going anywhere.
5.) Just for review:
Dayton: Won as many NCAA Tournament games last week as they had in the previous 30 years. Doesn't bring anything to the table Xavier doesn't already give you. Dayton aspires to be a poor man's Xavier.
Wichita State: Has only been past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament twice in the last 33 years. Won as many games in the last 2 NCAA Tournaments as they had in the previous 47 years. Too small media market. Poor institutional fit.
Saint Louis: Institutional fit, but athletic Johnny-come-latelys. Some success compared to the poor state the program was in before, but the last time they got to the Regional Semifinals of the Tournament, Eisenhower was President.
VCU: Other than 2011 Final Four Run, VCU has never made it to the Sweet 16 in program history. NCAA Record without someone named Shaka Smart as the coach is 5-9.

[SJHooper]

Well those are some good points can't really argue with that, but I guess it would be more of an investment for the future, not bringing in traditional powers. You add some teams who are hot and hope they stick. Out of those teams though I think at least 1 would stick...probably VCU if I had to bet.

Can you really blame us for being so paranoid? The ACC came in the middle of the night and kidnapped Cuse and Pitt from us. They took dynamite and put it right in the center of the Big East. I'm just paranoid that another round is coming and with SJ clearly never doing anything big with Lavin, Butler disappointing, Creighton losing basically everyone, PC losing Cotton, SHU losing lots of veterans, Marquette losing their top notch coach, and G'Town in a funk, the only sure thing is Villanova right now. That's why I would look to expand.

Also, how can you act like UMass wouldn't go to the AAC? That would shake things up because the A-10 would be looking to replace them. And they could end up taking a school the Big East considered adding.

[notkirkcameron]

Well those are some good points can't really argue with that, but I guess it would be more of an investment for the future, not bringing in traditional powers. You add some teams who are hot and hope they stick. Out of those teams though I think at least 1 would stick...probably VCU if I had to bet.

Can you really blame us for being so paranoid? The ACC came in the middle of the night and kidnapped Cuse and Pitt from us. They took dynamite and put it right in the center of the Big East. I'm just paranoid that another round is coming and with SJ clearly never doing anything big with Lavin, Butler disappointing, Creighton losing basically everyone, PC losing Cotton, SHU losing lots of veterans, Marquette losing their top notch coach, and G'Town in a funk, the only sure thing is Villanova right now. That's why I would look to expand.

Also, how can you act like UMass wouldn't go to the AAC? That would shake things up because the A-10 would be looking to replace them. And they could end up taking a school the Big East considered adding.

OK, but we don't have what the ACC wants now. The ACC wants its $52 million exit fee enforced. That's its first, second, and third priority. If that gets struck down in court, the ACC needs to worry about holding on to members rather than finding new ones. The ACC is not going to a hybrid model. They don't want any teams that don't grow the football pie, and they already have 15 basketball members. So even if they do lose a football member or two, they're aiming for UConn and Cincinnati, not Villanova and Butler.

I never said UMass wouldn't go to the American. What I said was that I found it difficult to believe that UMass going to the American was going to make much of a difference, or cause a conference realignment cascade like you seemed to think it would. No conference commissioner is sitting in a boardroom right now with all their top guys going "HOLY SHIT YOU GUYS UMASS JUST GOT KICKED OUT OF THE MAC FOR FOOTBALL ONLY WHAT ARE WE GONNA DOOOOOOOO?!?!?!?!?!?!" It would not surprise me if UMass ended up in the American. It also wouldnt surprise me if they drop back down to FCS because from all accounts, FBS football at UMass has been an unmitigated competitive and financial disaster.

Back to adding your suggested 4 programs, it's curious that you used the word "investment." The trouble is that investments can go up or down. They're not sure things. So a more appropriate word for the Big East adding VCU, SLU, Dayton, and Wichita isn't "investing," it's "gambling." You're gambling that one of those programs will all of a sudden turn into a power in the Big East. As a case study, Marquette and DePaul joined the Big East in the same year, and the year before they joined, DePaul finished ahead of Marquette in Conference USA. Since then, it's not even close. MU has become a nearly perennial tournament team, and DePaul is a laughingstock.

You know this gamble to be true and say it in as many words.

You add some teams who are hot and hope they stick. Out of those teams though I think at least 1 would stick...probably VCU if I had to bet.

By similar reasoning, the Big East should have added "hot" teams Southern Illinois in 2005, George Mason in 2006, and Florida Gulf Coast in 2013, and hell, why not Mercer this year? They got just as far or farther in the tournament as VCU, SLU, and Wichita State. It's just plain DUMB to split the pie 14 ways instead of 10, with "at least one" of the "hot" four teams supposedly adding value.

Pass.

You say the Big East should "add some teams who are hot and hope they stick." But expansion for expansion's sake is reckless, shows poor judgment from both a sporting and business perspective, and is, in as many words as you used, "Throwing shit against the wall and hoping something will stick."

[stever20]

I just love the folks that say VCU is a 1 hit wonder. Bottom line, if ANY of SLU, Dayton, Richmond, Duquesne, or ANY private school in our region had VCU's basketball resume, they would be in the Big East right now. PERIOD. There's just no debate about that. VCU has done more after their final 4 by far than ANY of those other schools. Top 15 ratings, getting seeded 6 and 5 in 2 straight tournaments, etc. VCU has nothing to do about basketball whatsoever. It's just that damn litmus test. The problem is that litmus test may cost us long term, and that's just a shame.

[BillikensWin]

This league will not expand. They took who they wanted.

In terms of basketball, it will be fine with 10. There will NEVER be 11/12.

Waiting for my ban now.

The question is: how is any "candidate school" going to change from what they were when the Big East was announced?

[hoch21]

I didn't think this way before, but I really think another shakeup is coming soon in light of this story and the ACC vs. Maryland situation. We have to be the predator, not the prey this round. We secured some very good programs but we need more. Let's snatch up Wichita State while they are red hot to capitalize on the recruiting and branding. Let's take Dayton, VCU, and STL. That gives us 14 teams.

Villanova/ DePaul
SJ / Marquette
SHU / PC
Creighton/ Wichita St.
G'Town / Dayton
Xavier / VCU
Butler / St. Louis

That is a pretty damn formidable conference. At worst it's rock solid. At best it's a 6-8 bid league. We have better odds that one of WSU, STL, Dayton, or VCU will not drop off. This brings more fans to MSG for the tourney, a larger following, a larger audience for FS1, and definitely raises the profile IMO. I'm very worried that Val is way too submissive. She has not been vocal and she has not been aggressive so far. The AAC can easily snatch the rest of the talent out there and then we are stuck. This brings some great rivalries Dayton v. Xavier, Wichita St. v. Creighton, etc.

Breathe into a paper bag, chicken little. The sky is not falling.

1.) There's already an expansion thread where the four programs you mentioned have already been discussed at length, and
2.) After 130+ pages, the consensus I got was that there may be one or two good reasons to add all of them, but there's no compelling reason to add any of them.
3.) Please detail how Val Ackerman has "not been aggressive." Why? Because she hasn't expanded the league? It's still the first year, for God's sake. You want to expand for the sake of expanding.
4.) The AAC is not going to add Wichita, VCU, Dayton, and SLU. I mean, a hybrid football/basketball model worked out so well for them last time, right? Get real. None of those programs are going anywhere.
5.) Just for review:
Dayton: Won as many NCAA Tournament games last week as they had in the previous 30 years. Doesn't bring anything to the table Xavier doesn't already give you. Dayton aspires to be a poor man's Xavier.
Wichita State: Has only been past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament twice in the last 33 years. Won as many games in the last 2 NCAA Tournaments as they had in the previous 47 years. Too small media market. Poor institutional fit.
Saint Louis: Institutional fit, but athletic Johnny-come-latelys. Some success compared to the poor state the program was in before, but the last time they got to the Regional Semifinals of the Tournament, Eisenhower was President.
VCU: Other than 2011 Final Four Run, VCU has never made it to the Sweet 16 in program history. NCAA Record without someone named Shaka Smart as the coach is 5-9.

I'd give Wichita St and Dayton a bid now. They have the teams, facilities, market and fans to bring more to the table than most if the current Big East teams. What did Butler do to earn anything other than dominate a bad conference for years. Now they are struggling and will continue to struggle. Below average facilities, in state with much larger basketball powers and average fans. As far as Dayton being a poor mans X, X isn't even the most popular team in Cincy.

[butlerguy03]

This group of 10 is not adding a school just because they've had a great class come through in basketball. They're only looking for institutional fit and added market value. Butler, Creighton and Xavier did that with media markets, nationally known programs to basketball fans, the ability to attract fans, and the opening of new basketball recruiting pipelines.

Wichita, UMass & VCU do not have institutional fit.

St. Louis, Dayton and other private universities were left out for reasons unknown to me, but were seen as unworthy for an invitation when organized by the C7.

We are at 10, and unless Notre Dame comes calling, we will not see an expansion of the Big East. Even then, 11 may be it.

Let it go!

[XtoDC]

I'd give Wichita St and Dayton a bid now. They have the teams, facilities, market and fans to bring more to the table than most if the current Big East teams. What did Butler do to earn anything other than dominate a bad conference for years. Now they are struggling and will continue to struggle. Below average facilities, in state with much larger basketball powers and average fans. As far as Dayton being a poor mans X, X isn't even the most popular team in Cincy.

I fail to understand how what you said after the comma has anything to do with what you said preceding it. Please tell me how the University of Cincinnati's status as a large state university will impact Dayton's admittance in the Big East.

[LeMoyne00]

UMass is most likely headed to the Sun Belt. That is where the homeless football programs go. Especially considering their horrid football situation 2-22 the last two years, a home stadium with porta johns and home away from home games over an hour away in Foxboro where they average 15,000 (highly inflated btw). That dumpster fire of a football program does not sound like AAC material.

[Bill Marsh]

1. The AAC has no interest in UMass.
2. The Sun Belt has been suggested as a league in which UMass can park it's football.
3. The likelihood is that UMass drs it's football back to FCS.

The biggest threat out there is the rumor that the SEC has plans to expand to 18-20 teams or more, becoming the first truly super conference - pending the outcome of the Maryland-ACC court case. If that happens, the Big ten will likely respond with expansion of there own. With shrinking numbers of leagues, networks will likely want larger leagues to provide needed inventory.

The other threat is the ACC tournament at Barclays in 2017-18, posing direct competition to the Big East tournament. With an average of 14,500 in this year's tourney, the conference tournament needs bigger numbers and with 2 premium tournaments in the same week, attracting local fans will be a bigger challenge. One way to boost attendance is to add membership - perhaps growing even to 14. Dayton has to be considered a very viable candidate under these circumstances because they travel well and because their success in the next 2-3 years projects very well.