Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[muskienick]

OK, enough wishful thinking. Back to determining whether we should add Siena or Canisius to make sure there's enough teams in the East and plenty of people at the Garden. I hear they're both programs on the rise...

notkirk,

I assume you made the above comment in jest, especially with VCU and Richmond in the discussion.

[Bill Marsh]

No conference in the country has schools with a better fit than the Ivy League, but their athletic programs in the revenue sports are unable to compete. And it's not just because the members agreed to deemphasize athletics when they dropped athletic scholarships. A quarter century after the formalization of the Ivy League in 1954, Penn was still competing at the highest levels, was nationally ranked annually, and made it to the Final Four in 1979. To a lesser extent Princeton was still competing at that level. Yale was still competing in football up through the early '70's as was Columbia in basketball.

I don't know about you, but there is no conference in the country I would rather my school be a member of than the Ivy League. If word got out that any Big East school turned down an Ivy League invite, I have a feeling there would be one or two angry people.

I agree, but not if I had aspirations to compete in big time college sports.

[muskienick]

With regard to geographic balance, one of the conference's top priorities has to be attendance at the Big East tournament. If for no other reason than that, the conference should continue to maintain growth in the East as part of its plan when it expands because proximity of a member to NYC works in favor of better attendance while distance is an impediment.

Huh? I would think that the tourney attendance might be ninth or tenth on the list, and should take care of itself no matter what the make up of the conference is.

First priority is support of FS1 through an attractive market. Second is putting people in seats for the 200 conference games. Third is getting adequate representation in the NCAA tourney.

Are you assuming that us Midwest fans can't find our way east? You don't think Creighton will be the dominate crowd at MSG? The more significant cost of going to the tourney is staying in NYC, not getting there, and the high cost of the tickets. I got to NYC for $180 RT last trip flying Indy to LGA. What does one night stay cost? What does it cost to park my car in NYC for a weekend?

I guess Fordham might be available for addition. Their fan can take the subway to the tourney.

I agree that a new member's fan attendance at Conference Tourney games is probably way down on the list of criteria for selection. Your three top priority criteria are well-chosen and each of the last two are dependent on conditions created by the schools' commitment to their basketball programs (recruiting budget, coaching selections and salaries, size and amenities of their basketball-related facilities, aggressiveness at getting their own great TV and radio contracts and exposure, etc.). Like it or not, if a potential new member can't cut it in one or more of those criteria, then it should not be granted membership in the Conference. Fordham, a school mentioned by you for comedic reasons, is not the only one that should be eliminated by failing to meet criteria. But it's best to leave it up to the imagination of the readers of this thread to set their own priority ranking for such potential new member(s) of the Big East.

[muskienick]

So, looking beyond superficial similarities, just how much does this group "fit" together? In the most important way, they do because they are all pursuing basketball excellence. To continue to be successful, they must bring in new members who are committed to doing the same.

From my perspective, Bill, I think the last two sentences of your immediately previous posting says it all. If that means inviting Gonzaga, so be it, even if the Zags join solely for basketball. each of our current members already probably schedule at least one game or participate in one exempt tourney that is way out of their own Conference's footprint (Hawaii, Alaska, etc.). What would be so terrible for our current 10 members to take a single trip each to the west coast. If someone brings up the woes of Gonzaga travelling to 10 East and Midwestern venues to join the Big East, I would respond by suggesting that nobody twisted their arm to make them join. They must have decided it would pay dividends to do so.

[Bill Marsh]

The Ivy League is choosing not to take part in the commercialization of college sports. That's the reason they have no Ivy League basketball tournament. Conferences can give out their bid to whomever they choose. Most choose to have a conference tourney to determine the winner because it makes more money. The Ivy League can do this, they are the highest academic institutions in the country and people will always know who they are. Few other schools have that option and must get their name out however they can. If Harvard, Yale, and Princeton decided tomorrow that they wanted to be the 3 best athletic institutions in the country I would bet anything that by 2020 they would be on top in every sport. They have those kinds of resources.

Yes, Ivy League schools have the resources, but none of them can go it on their own without encountering a ceiling on how high they can rise. Just look at what Tommy Amaker is doing at Harvard. They're good enough to get a bid even if they finished the season in a tie and lost a playoff game. But they could never become "The Duke of the North" as long as they're in the Ivy League because. They're limited by the level of the competitor - unless of course the whole Ivy League chose a different path as an entire conference.

[sciencejay]

We all agree that selecting expansion partners will be very difficult. There are now nearly 70 pages of people voicing opinions about who it might be and what reasons those schools could/should be at the top of the list, but what is/are the most important parameter(s) for the decision? There are three entities involved in the decision-making process who often have parallel goals, but they also have conflicting goals. There are the universities/university presidents, Fox Sports and the Big East Conference.

What counts as a good academic 'fit' to a handful of catholic priests (and Butler's president) who run institutions of higher education may not be seen as good competitive/financial fits to the other two entities. No doubt the presidents signed on with a big eye toward the financial benefits of this affiliation, but their main responsibilities are to their entire academic communities. So with 9/10 schools being Catholic, maybe the presidents would prefer SLU and Dayton, two schools very much in the mold of the rest of the conference member universities.

Fox Sports is a business, and as such, mainly cares about money (eyes on TV sets). FS might prefer Gonzaga and BYU because they would bring in reliable fan bases and increase the footprint of the conference (presumably increasing viewership and therefore increasing the pot of $$).

The conference exists to manage the competitive environment, and while men's bb is the main component, the conference has to manage all sports. So teams like Gonzaga and BYU may not be as attractive because it would increase the financial burdens of each university (who would make it clear that that isn't desirable without more money coming in to cover the increased costs) for travel for non-revenue sports teams. Fox Sports likely could give a rat's ass about the sports other than men's hoops, so they would be in conflict.

It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall during the discussions that go on in regard to expansion. I think many of us assume that at some point, the conference will expand to 12 teams, and that those two newcomers will be basketball first schools (which may affect BYU's attractiveness). It's my guess that the conference will serve as a mediator between FS and the universities to come up with the right add-ons. In the end, I certainly don't know how it will play out, but which of the competing interests ends up weighing most heavily when making that final decision is something to be watched.

[Bill Marsh]

With regard to geographic balance, one of the conference's top priorities has to be attendance at the Big East tournament. If for no other reason than that, the conference should continue to maintain growth in the East as part of its plan when it expands because proximity of a member to NYC works in favor of better attendance while distance is an impediment.

Huh? I would think that the tourney attendance might be ninth or tenth on the list, and should take care of itself no matter what the make up of the conference is.

First priority is support of FS1 through an attractive market. Second is putting people in seats for the 200 conference games. Third is getting adequate representation in the NCAA tourney.

Are you assuming that us Midwest fans can't find our way east? You don't think Creighton will be the dominate crowd at MSG? The more significant cost of going to the tourney is staying in NYC, not getting there, and the high cost of the tickets. I got to NYC for $180 RT last trip flying Indy to LGA. What does one night stay cost? What does it cost to park my car in NYC for a weekend?

I guess Fordham might be available for addition. Their fan can take the subway to the tourney.

If you'd think that tournament attendance is 9th or 10th on the list, then you'd be wrong.

If you think that proximity makes Fordham a viable candidate, you're wrong again.

The tournament is the conference's show case even. It is a big deal for television, a major part of the attractiveness of the conference for network investment. It's not possible for the conference to succeed without that tournament succeeding.

Of course I don't think that Midwest fans can't find their way east. I even mentioned that Creighton has done a great job selling out its allotment. But that wasn't really my point, was it?

Creighton is a unique program. When the conference is looking at programs in the Midwest that have half the home attendance that Creighton does with correspondingly less enthusiasm for the program, you're les likely to see the same numbers traveling. All you have to do is look at the turnout for the A10 tournament at Barclay's Center last spring. VCU fans were the on.y ones who turned out in big numbers. Where were the StLouis fans and the Dayton fans?

[Bill Marsh]

So, looking beyond superficial similarities, just how much does this group "fit" together? In the most important way, they do because they are all pursuing basketball excellence. To continue to be successful, they must bring in new members who are committed to doing the same.

From my perspective, Bill, I think the last two sentences of your immediately previous posting says it all. If that means inviting Gonzaga, so be it, even if the Zags join solely for basketball. each of our current members already probably schedule at least one game or participate in one exempt tourney that is way out of their own Conference's footprint (Hawaii, Alaska, etc.). What would be so terrible for our current 10 members to take a single trip each to the west coast. If someone brings up the woes of Gonzaga travelling to 10 East and Midwestern venues to join the Big East, I would respond by suggesting that nobody twisted their arm to make them join. They must have decided it would pay dividends to do so.

I agree. But that idea seems to go against prevailing wisdom.

[Bill Marsh]

We all agree that selecting expansion partners will be very difficult. There are now nearly 70 pages of people voicing opinions about who it might be and what reasons those schools could/should be at the top of the list, but what is/are the most important parameter(s) for the decision? There are three entities involved in the decision-making process who often have parallel goals, but they also have conflicting goals. There are the universities/university presidents, Fox Sports and the Big East Conference.

What counts as a good academic 'fit' to a handful of catholic priests (and Butler's president) who run institutions of higher education may not be seen as good competitive/financial fits to the other two entities. No doubt the presidents signed on with a big eye toward the financial benefits of this affiliation, but their main responsibilities are to their entire academic communities. So with 9/10 schools being Catholic, maybe the presidents would prefer SLU and Dayton, two schools very much in the mold of the rest of the conference member universities.

Fox Sports is a business, and as such, mainly cares about money (eyes on TV sets). FS might prefer Gonzaga and BYU because they would bring in reliable fan bases and increase the footprint of the conference (presumably increasing viewership and therefore increasing the pot of $$).

The conference exists to manage the competitive environment, and while men's bb is the main component, the conference has to manage all sports. So teams like Gonzaga and BYU may not be as attractive because it would increase the financial burdens of each university (who would make it clear that that isn't desirable without more money coming in to cover the increased costs) for travel for non-revenue sports teams. Fox Sports likely could give a rat's ass about the sports other than men's hoops, so they would be in conflict.

It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall during the discussions that go on in regard to expansion. I think many of us assume that at some point, the conference will expand to 12 teams, and that those two newcomers will be basketball first schools (which may affect BYU's attractiveness). It's my guess that the conference will serve as a mediator between FS and the universities to come up with the right add-ons. In the end, I certainly don't know how it will play out, but which of the competing interests ends up weighing most heavily when making that final decision is something to be watched.

You're a wise man.

[tsmithohio1234]

""Where were the StLouis fans and the Dayton fans?""

Go rewind your tape of the A10 tourney last year. Dayton was the most represented. Just like Dayton had most fans at atlantic City while the tourney was there.
Not really sure where you got your info. Could be that Dayton bowed out early...