Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[senditinjerome]

I've said before that VCU is the no brainer choice, but if VCU is not chosen, then Richmond cannot be taken because it would be too much of an embarrassment for the league to have VCU dominating the A-10 and in the NCAA tournament every year and Richmond in the middle of the pack in the Big East and in the NIT every year when the big east could have had VCU but passed, due to "institutional fit."

Since someone threw out BU as a candidate before, I'm gonna throw out Siena...no seriously.

Pros:
Decent size market with no pro teams - Albany is #57 tv market (Richmond is #58).
Pro-size arena - 15K capacity.
6,300 average attendance last year to watch an 8-24 team play MAAC competition.
Provides another east coast team to balance SLU (6 east and 6 midwest)

Cons:
Made the tourney in 2008, 2009 & 2010, but no recent success after Fran McCaferty left for Iowa
In the MAAC - very weak league. would take a while for recruiting to get up to speed
Very small enrolment - 3,400...would be smallest school in the league


Siena is basically Dayton-light. Not an ideal or even obvious candidate, but after VCU, Wichita, Richmond and Dayton, there aren't many other schools out there...And don't say stay at 10, because that's obviously not realistic, per the Xavier AD.

[BillikensWin]

I've said before that VCU is the no brainer choice, but if VCU is not chosen, then Richmond cannot be taken because it would be too much of an embarrassment for the league to have VCU dominating the A-10 and in the NCAA tournament every year and Richmond in the middle of the pack in the Big East and in the NIT every year when the big east could have had VCU but passed, due to "institutional fit."

Since someone threw out BU as a candidate before, I'm gonna throw out Siena...no seriously.

Pros:
Decent size market with no pro teams - Albany is #57 tv market (Richmond is #58).
Pro-size arena - 15K capacity.
6,300 average attendance last year to watch an 8-24 team play MAAC competition.
Provides another east coast team to balance SLU (6 east and 6 midwest)

Cons:
Made the tourney in 2008, 2009 & 2010, but no recent success after Fran McCaferty left for Iowa
In the MAAC - very weak league. would take a while for recruiting to get up to speed
Very small enrolment - 3,400...would be smallest school in the league


Siena is basically Dayton-light. Not an ideal or even obvious candidate, but after VCU, Wichita, Richmond and Dayton, there aren't many other schools out there...And don't say stay at 10, because that's obviously not realistic, per the Xavier AD.

Except this: That's exactly what they are doing.

[Bill Marsh]

Dayton makes absolutely no sense to me. It would be the same as having St Joes or GW or URI join. We already have a team that covers the (Southern) OH market in X. Fox is going to want us to bring in new markets. So as "ready for prime time" that Dayton thinks they are (although their resume is seriously lacking much March success) it makes absolutely no sense to bring them on geographically. SLU makes the most sense along with someone like a UMASS over a Dayton.

You can't just write off a school that draws 12,000 to its games as making no sense.

Very underrated in many of these discussions is the importance of rivalries to generate interest. Having 2 schools in close proximity could work to intensify interest in the region and thereby overcome the advantage that the Cincy Bearcats have in size and identity with the area. I don't see the proximity of UNC, Duke, and NC State being a problem for the ACC. Nor do I see the UCLA/USC and Cal/Stanford pairings being a problem in the PAC-12. The SEC seems to do just fine with Alabama/Auburn. Same ith KU/K State in the Vig XII.

The other factor being ignored is that neither Xavier nor Dayton are local commuter schools. They draw their students regionally, so they don't simply share the Cincinnati/Dayton market. If they did, then they'd immediately be in Trouble because U Cincinnati is bigger than either of them and has a more prominent local presence. A good Dayton program would enhance TV ratings, they wouldn't simply be redundant of what Xavier already brings.

There's no denying that there are issues with a Dayton candidacy, but issues with market overlap are way overblown and are really a non-issue.

There is a big difference though in schools that are already in the league and a league looking to expand. If conferences were being done today, do you really think North Carolina would have 4 schools in the ACC? I don't.

Also- the issues with market overlap may be a non-issue to you, but I guarantee you they are a big issue to Xavier.

Whether the ACC would do it today is irrelevant. The point is that despite the market overlap, both thrive and are even better because of the rivalry. Both Alabama and Auburn have won national championships in the same market. Same for Kentucky and Louisville. USC and UCLA both thrive in the same market. The list is endless. Two teams in the same market is not a bad thing at all.

It may be a big issue to Xavier, but if that's the case, they are being foolish. They should be more worried about Cincinnati.

[Bill Marsh]

Dayton makes absolutely no sense to me. It would be the same as having St Joes or GW or URI join. We already have a team that covers the (Southern) OH market in X. Fox is going to want us to bring in new markets. So as "ready for prime time" that Dayton thinks they are (although their resume is seriously lacking much March success) it makes absolutely no sense to bring them on geographically. SLU makes the most sense along with someone like a UMASS over a Dayton.

You can't just write off a school that draws 12,000 to its games as making no sense.

Very underrated in many of these discussions is the importance of rivalries to generate interest. Having 2 schools in close proximity could work to intensify interest in the region and thereby overcome the advantage that the Cincy Bearcats have in size and identity with the area. I don't see the proximity of UNC, Duke, and NC State being a problem for the ACC. Nor do I see the UCLA/USC and Cal/Stanford pairings being a problem in the PAC-12. The SEC seems to do just fine with Alabama/Auburn. Same ith KU/K State in the Vig XII.

The other factor being ignored is that neither Xavier nor Dayton are local commuter schools. They draw their students regionally, so they don't simply share the Cincinnati/Dayton market. If they did, then they'd immediately be in Trouble because U Cincinnati is bigger than either of them and has a more prominent local presence. A good Dayton program would enhance TV ratings, they wouldn't simply be redundant of what Xavier already brings.

There's no denying that there are issues with a Dayton candidacy, but issues with market overlap are way overblown and are really a non-issue.

Bill, are you seriously trying to draw a parallel between Dayton/XU and UNC, Duke and NC St, and Auburn/Ala? Did I read that correctly? So you think America will tune in to see XU-Dayton?

And yes I can just dismiss a school like Dayton because #1 they just aren't that great of a program, and #2 they are close to XU. You want them in what we hope to be the premeir hoops conference in America because of their lone rivalry with XU? Did I get that right? Those 2 can continue to play for years to come and every TV in SW OH that is not a UC house will be tuned to it. Meanwhile Syr and Duke are a thousand miles from each other and in one game they built what might become a great national hoops rivalry. It's about winning programs. If programs win, fans want to see their games and TV's tune in. If CU and Nova meet up in the BET final and both are Top 10 programs, don't ya think that will draw viewers from all over? No rivalry there before this year, but 2 very good programs.

Dayton is not a program that will improve this league no matter how rabid their 12k fans are. If they were they would have proven it by now, and we would have invited them instead of XU. and to boot, if one of the other 9 schools were to tell Villanova that they'd rather not share a market with another school, that would be all I had to hear. Done, no Dayton if that's what you want XU. For years Nova had to endure talk of Temple joining the BE. We didn't like it and I can see why XU wouldn't like it.

I am not a fan of adding Dayton.

You missed my point. What I said was that you can't just write off a team that draws 12,000 fans as making no sense. That kind of support and interest has to give anyone pause. I said that a good Dayton program could be an asset to the league. Unfortunately they have not been a good program. I thought that was obvious.

I also said they have other issues. And it's those other issues that make their candidacy questionable. My point is that market overlap should not be a reason for dismissing a candidacy.

Sorry that you don't like the UNC-Duke analogy. It's an analogy, a comparison, an example. Of course they're not precisely the same. But I'll tell you this, IF they were both powerhouses, then yes, America would tune in and wouldn't care that they were both in the same market.

[Bill Marsh]

Agree with Gumby, we should not double up markets as there is simply no need to do so. If Xavier wants to be the Big East school from Ohio, that should be their call. I thought it was ridiculous that the old Big East was bringing in Temple for hoops. I don't think Dayton adds enough to make them 11 or 12. I like the 10 we are at. If we had to make a move, get SLU and stick with 11. But I like the ten we have. No need to mix it up.

There's no need to? Really? Assuming that Fox wants 2 more teams in the league, which they apparently do. And assuming that the presidents don't want a public school, where are you turning for the 12th team?

BTW, I assume that you are a St. John's fan. Do you think that having St. John's and Seton Hall in the same market hurts the conference?

[BillikensWin]

Agree with Gumby, we should not double up markets as there is simply no need to do so. If Xavier wants to be the Big East school from Ohio, that should be their call. I thought it was ridiculous that the old Big East was bringing in Temple for hoops. I don't think Dayton adds enough to make them 11 or 12. I like the 10 we are at. If we had to make a move, get SLU and stick with 11. But I like the ten we have. No need to mix it up.

There's no need to? Really? Assuming that Fox wants 2 more teams in the league, which they apparently do. And assuming that the presidents don't want a public school, where are you turning for the 12th team?

BTW, I assume that you are a St. John's fan. Do you think that having St. John's and Seton Hall in the same market hurts the conference?

Where is Fox "apparently" wanting 2 more teams? If they did, the league would have started with them.

The Big East is at 10 teams, and it will remain so.

[SLUnatic1]

IF there is any expansion, I think just adding SLU and going to 11 teams for now makes the most sense. As I have said before though, I would be totally fine sticking with 10 at least for a few years to see how it plays out.

11 teams worked for the B1G for 21 years. I would be happy with it. It would give us a program on the rise and time to consider a potential #12. There's always the possibility to stay at 11.

Yep. I think inviting SLU as the 11th and staying there would make the most sense. As of now, there is no good 12th school out of any of those choices.

On behalf of SLU, I humbly accept the Big East invitation.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Agree with Gumby, we should not double up markets as there is simply no need to do so. If Xavier wants to be the Big East school from Ohio, that should be their call. I thought it was ridiculous that the old Big East was bringing in Temple for hoops. I don't think Dayton adds enough to make them 11 or 12. I like the 10 we are at. If we had to make a move, get SLU and stick with 11. But I like the ten we have. No need to mix it up.

There's no need to? Really? Assuming that Fox wants 2 more teams in the league, which they apparently do. And assuming that the presidents don't want a public school, where are you turning for the 12th team?

BTW, I assume that you are a St. John's fan. Do you think that having St. John's and Seton Hall in the same market hurts the conference?

Bill, do you have any perspective here. USC & UCLA are in L-freaking-A and they are HUGE schools. SHU and SJU are original BE teams and you realize that NYC metro is slightly larger than Dayton. For perpspective NY metro can support 9 major professional sports teams (MLB, NBA, NHL, NFL). Dayton cannot support 1 . So do you think NY is big enough to support 2 college BB schools?

C'mon man your comparisons make no sense whatsoever.

[Bill Marsh]

Agree with Gumby, we should not double up markets as there is simply no need to do so. If Xavier wants to be the Big East school from Ohio, that should be their call. I thought it was ridiculous that the old Big East was bringing in Temple for hoops. I don't think Dayton adds enough to make them 11 or 12. I like the 10 we are at. If we had to make a move, get SLU and stick with 11. But I like the ten we have. No need to mix it up.

There's no need to? Really? Assuming that Fox wants 2 more teams in the league, which they apparently do. And assuming that the presidents don't want a public school, where are you turning for the 12th team?

BTW, I assume that you are a St. John's fan. Do you think that having St. John's and Seton Hall in the same market hurts the conference?

Bill, do you have any perspective here. USC & UCLA are in L-freaking-A and they are HUGE schools. SHU and SJU are original BE teams and you realize that NYC metro is slightly larger than Dayton. For perpspective NY metro can support 9 major professional sports teams (MLB, NBA, NHL, NFL). Dayton cannot support 1 . So do you think NY is big enough to support 2 college BB schools?

C'mon man your comparisons make no sense whatsoever.

I thought that one would get someone riled up.

[booyah]

Just my two cents on Siena-

My impression is that they are like a Davidson north - at least in size. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they like 3000 undergrads? I think that automatically takes them out of the discussion.

If we see the Northeast being a weak area for the Big East, there are only so many candidates - UConn (public/AAC affiliation/football), Siena (i think waay too small), BU (little on campus/Boston recognition for bball), UMass (public/football/not in Boston). Out of the options, I can't shake the idea that BU's issues are at least fixable in the medium term while the other candidates problems are structural and much more difficult to overcome.

Also - the Canada suggestions are at least fun to think about. Knowing nothing about Canadian basketball, i'd want to add Mcgill. High ranking, good name recognition.