Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[marquette]

There is also the potential to win more games. You have more chances to win games, and the championship overall, with more teams. One team winning a game is good, gets you another credit; two teams winning a game is better, it's kind of like getting 4 teams in the tourney.

With SLU and VCU, this year and the last 3, we would have 5 tourney teams this year. Outside shot at 6.

With SLU and Dayton we would probably have 5, possibly 6 if Dayton performed to their usual standards and won OOC/dropped meaningful games in-conference.

With SLU and Richmond we probably have 5, outside shot at 6 as Richmond is just outside the bubble.

We are currently at 3 or 4, maybe a slim 0.001% shot at 5 with a favorable BE tourney run by Georgetown.

5/12=42%

6/12=50%

4/10=40%

[xubrew]

Football conferences expanded to add better FOOTBALL schools and new markets. Anybody really think the B1G was drooling over the Nebraska basketball program when they added them? Same can be said for the ACC, Pac 12, SEC, MW, even the AAC. That has as much or more to do with it than pure numbers. We will expand for basketball schools. The A10 is poor example because the schools that were getting bids have failed to sustain success, and many of the NCAA teams are the new kids on the block VCU, SLU).

Number of bids is more important because of advertising. When you have more schools in the tourney you get more eyeballs on your conference. The NCAA tourney is more important from an advertising perspective than from a credits perspective. What was Butler's return on the 2 final four runs?

It was about $17 million for the conference.

It's more important for a program to have eyes on their program than it is for them to have eyes on the conference that they're in. Butler's run brought attention to Butler. It didn't do much for Youngstown State.

Making the NCAA Tournament means more eyeballs on your program. You have a better chance of making the NCAA Tournament in a nine (or ten) team league that plays a round robin schedule than you do in a twelve team league that doesn't.

It's also more money per school, because even if it is fewer teams, it is a higher percentage, and you're not sharing it with as many people.

If it's exposure you're worried about, consider this. If Syracuse and Pitt make the tournament, people aren't looking at that and thinking "Man, this is great exposure for Clemson and Wake Forest."

So, I would argue that it's in the best interest of the programs to be in a smaller conference. You're right. Expansion wasn't about basketball. If it had been about basketball, it never would have happened.

[HoosierPal]

Number of bids is more important because of advertising. When you have more schools in the tourney you get more eyeballs on your conference. The NCAA tourney is more important from an advertising perspective than from a credits perspective. What was Butler's return on the 2 final four runs?

Finally, someone making sense.

It was written by the Washington Post's Jenna Johnson (link below) that the TV exposure and media attention for Butler for their two Final Four appearances was worth in the neighborhood of $1 billion. Applications to Butler doubled after the appearances. Enrollment has maxed out, due to the appearances in the Final Four.

In 2001, yes before the run, 3,168 applications were received for undergraduate admission. In 2012, 9,683 applications were received. The % of out of state applications has risen from 42% to 56% in the same time. Think that is due to the % of Horizon League schools in the NCAA, or a feature of BEING IN THE TOURNEY.

I'm out.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/rw/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/03/20/Education/Graphics/w-butler.jpg

[xubrew]

Number of bids is more important because of advertising. When you have more schools in the tourney you get more eyeballs on your conference. The NCAA tourney is more important from an advertising perspective than from a credits perspective. What was Butler's return on the 2 final four runs?

Finally, someone making sense.

It was written by the Washington Post's Jenna Johnson (link below) that the TV exposure and media attention for Butler for their two Final Four appearances was worth in the neighborhood of $1 billion. Applications to Butler doubled after the appearances. Enrollment has maxed out, due to the appearances in the Final Four.

In 2001, yes before the run, 3,168 applications were received for undergraduate admission. In 2012, 9,683 applications were received. The % of out of state applications has risen from 42% to 56% in the same time. Think that is due to the % of Horizon League schools in the NCAA, or a feature of BEING IN THE TOURNEY.

I'm out.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/rw/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/03/20/Education/Graphics/w-butler.jpg

What does that have to do with expansion??

Would it have been worth $2 billion if the Horizon League had twelve teams instead of ten??

Would it haven been better for Butler had Valpo also maid the field??

Both Wright State and Butler made it in 2007. Was that somehow better for the league since it had more teams in??

I'm not getting the connection. I don't doubt that it was worth a billion dollars to Butler. I just don't see what that has to do with expansion. It's like saying that we should have the Final Four in Seattle because of how well the Seahawks are doing. What's that got to do with anything in regards to expansion??

[marquette]

You are correct that Creighton being in the tourney will not make people think "Marquette." However, announcers saying "Creighton, looking to end an excellent first season in the Big East..." creates awareness for the league. Maybe Creighton smokes their first round opponent by 30, and some people sit up and take notice. Maybe next time they see Creighton's name on a tv guide they stop and watch Marquette and Creighton duke it out. Maybe their 17 y/o kid sees it and says "hey, I want to go to a school that packs the stands like that and plays great ball." There are tons of indirect benefits from having more teams in the tourney. Hypothetical? Absolutely. So is this whole thread. Plausible? Absolutely. That's how I became aware of my undergrad alma mater. Wound up looking into them when I was applying to schools. Liked what I saw.

[marquette]

This will also come up when we re-negotiate our tv deal. Number of tourney/ranked/winning teams will probably play into it. Number/size of markets will too.

[milwaukeejedi1]

Adding quality teams may insulate the Big East from sending no fewer than 4/5 teams to the tourney yearly helping to maintain its reputation (which counts with recruits and pundits) and keeps the percentage of teams dancing at a respectable number. This year, with Marquette and Georgetown not competing for the conference championship, the Big East may only send 3 teams to the NCAA tournament. If we had VCU and SLU, the Big East would easily send 4 teams to the tourney and pundits would be writing/talking about the Big East potentially sending 5/6 teams.

[NJRedman]

Football conferences expanded to add better FOOTBALL schools and new markets. Anybody really think the B1G was drooling over the Nebraska basketball program when they added them? Same can be said for the ACC, Pac 12, SEC, MW, even the AAC. That has as much or more to do with it than pure numbers. We will expand for basketball schools. The A10 is poor example because the schools that were getting bids have failed to sustain success, and many of the NCAA teams are the new kids on the block VCU, SLU).

Number of bids is more important because of advertising. When you have more schools in the tourney you get more eyeballs on your conference. The NCAA tourney is more important from an advertising perspective than from a credits perspective. What was Butler's return on the 2 final four runs?

The first round of ACC expansion was for FB, the second round was pretty much BBall oriented. UConn was supposed to be the last team in, then FSU and Clemson threw their weight around about wanting a FB school as the next team in and UofL was the compromise. Definitely a BBall focused expansion.

[Bill Marsh]

Football conferences expanded to add better FOOTBALL schools and new markets. Anybody really think the B1G was drooling over the Nebraska basketball program when they added them? Same can be said for the ACC, Pac 12, SEC, MW, even the AAC. That has as much or more to do with it than pure numbers. We will expand for basketball schools. The A10 is poor example because the schools that were getting bids have failed to sustain success, and many of the NCAA teams are the new kids on the block VCU, SLU).

Number of bids is more important because of advertising. When you have more schools in the tourney you get more eyeballs on your conference. The NCAA tourney is more important from an advertising perspective than from a credits perspective. What was Butler's return on the 2 final four runs?

The first round of ACC expansion was for FB, the second round was pretty much BBall oriented. UConn was supposed to be the last team in, then FSU and Clemson threw their weight around about wanting a FB school as the next team in and UofL was the compromise. Definitely a BBall focused expansion.

Suggesting that ACC expansion in 2011 was about basketball simply because Syracuse and Pitt have good basketball programs is about as valid as saying that expansion was about lacrosse and wrestling because those schools also have top programs in those areas as well.

When these decisions were being made a couple of years ago, realignment was very fluid. The Syracuse/Pitt decision was likely made for strategic reasons rather than to bolster any specific sport. Although we don't know for sure what the ACC was thinking, we can look at the results:

1. The ACC added Syracuse and Pitt in September, 2011. A year later, they announced the addition of Notre Dame. Pitt and Syracuse are two of the schools with the closest relationship with Notre Dame athletics historically. It's likely that the ACC was positioning itself to recruit Notre Dame all along.

2. The defections of Syracuse and Pitt killed the Big East as we knew it. They were the first dominoes to fall with TCU, West Virginia, Louisville, and Rutgers to follow. The coup de gras was the announcement by the Catholic basketball schools that they were splitting. It's likely that the ACC targeted Syracuse and Pitt partly to kill their biggest competitor on the Atlantic Coast, thereby removing any potential raiding of the ACC by the big East. Remember that there was dissatisfaction among the southern football schools in the ACC, which eventually led to the addition of Louisville to satisfy them. But at one point their dissatisfaction had reportedly led to discussions with the Big XII by those very football schools. Had they left, the ACC would have been vulnerable to other defections. Eliminating the Big East also eliminated one of the potential landing spots for any potential defectors. Perhaps that was the point all along.

3. The ACC was not the only one looking into expansion in the Northeast. But they were the ones to make the first strike. That move limited the options for other competitors. The Big XII did eventually expand into the region with West Virginia. There were later reports that they also had an eye on Pitt as a partner. By acting first, the ACC eliminated that option. The Big Ten eventually expanded into the region. Their options were also limited. Syracuse was off the table and eventually Notre Dame was too. The ACC was protecting its rear flank.

[milwaukeejedi1]

Conference Footprints: http://www.hoopsmap.com/map/conferences.html