Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[Bill Marsh]

Bill Marsh,

The georgraphy argument is interesting, but I think geography went out the window a long time ago in college sports.

It did.

There are problems in college sports right now that are somewhat related to geography but have more to do with schools playing other schools with whom they have little or no history. Rivalries are what make for intensity in college games. It's bad enough to have changes in conferences, but when geography enters the picture, it becomes even harder to build new rivalries. Think West Virginia vs anybody in the Big XII.

My issue with geography specifically in the Big East has to do with opportunity. No conference dominates the college sports scene in the East - especially the Boston-Washington corridor where most of the people live. Hence, there is opportunity for a conference to assert itself and to make itself the focal point of fan interest. If a conference is able to do that it will benefit doubly because it will also be able to take advantage of its position to dominate basketball recruiting in the region which is probably the best in the country. There will be further benefit realized from greater turnout at the Vig east tournament from schools without the impediment of travel.

I don't believe that East Coast schools will ever have the rivalries with Midwest schools that they can and have had with other Eastern schools. If the Big East expands with schools from the Midwest, I fear that it will be forever a second class citizen in the shadow of the Big Ten. Opportunity exists for something better than that in the East.

Therefore, all other things being equal, I would prefer expansion opportunities in the East unless there is an overwhelming benefit to taking a school from outside the region, which indeed there was with Butler, Xavier, and Creighton.

[notkirkcameron]

The number: Zero

Number of NCAA Tournament victories for UMass with someone other than John Calipari coaching them.

Number of times VCU has been past the first weekend of the Tournament outside of 2011's Final Four run. See also: 1.) fluke 2.) bottle, lightning in a.

The fact that you don't respect the histories of these two programs reflects on you, not the programs. The VCU history, which includes NCAA tournament appearances in each of the past 4 decades, has been posted many times, but UMass has not.

UMass has great basketball history, dating back 50 years. It's more than the Calipari era. They were a power in the old Yankee Conference, winning 9 conference titles. In the '60's and '70's. Unfortunately, the NCAA, which was always biased against schools in the East, took away the conference's tournament bid at that time, eliminating their opportunity to win NCAA tournament games. Instead they went to the NIT, which was still a big deal back then and won tournament games there. The program is also about more than just Marcus Camby. It is also the program of legendary Hall of Famer, Doctor J. It is the program that launched the careers of Rick Pitino and Al Skinner

I was unaware of the NCAA taking away the Yankee Conference's automatic bid. However, I cannot find anything online that indicates why this action was taken, and why the Yankee Conference did not have an automatic bid from 1968-1975. What happened? Is it because the conference was so small? It only had six members, but at least today, six is the NCAA minimum for a conference to be formed.

As to whether the program is more than the Calipari era that may certainly be true. However, what's more pressing for any Big East president considering expansion (and considering UMass) is that UMass hasn't been a power since the Calipari era.

Even when this suggestion of "UMass to the Big East" began earlier this season, UMass was ranked after a 10-1 start (after beating New Mexico and Clemson), but they now appear to be reverting to form after losing to St. Bonaventure, St. Joe's, and Richmond. They are 5th in the A-10 at 4-3, out of the Top 25, and have returned to the same unranked position that until Thanksgiving of this year, the Minutemen have held every day of every season since November of 1998.

Put another way, Val Ackerman, Fox, and the 10 university presidents are not impressed with Dr. J's UMass's domination of URI, Pre-Calhoun UConn, Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont in 1971 when considering expansion.


The VCU NCAA Tournament history, as stated, outside of the 2011 Final Four run, is pretty unremarkable. 12 berths in 40 years, and outside of the 2011 Final Four run, zero trips to the second weekend. With a record of 12-12 overall, they're basically LaSalle (13-11) or SMU (10-12).

[Gopher+RamFan]

Advancing in the tournament is important, but let's look outside of that and at the final RPI's of the teams discussed for expansion. This is a good barometer of where the team has been, regardless of Conference affiliation.

VCU. Richmond. Dayton. SLU

2003/2004. 45. 39. 37. 58

2004/2005. 91. 147. 117. 184

2005/2006. 74. 205. 184. 102

2006/2007. 44. 272. 76. 74

2007/2008. 60. 129. 28. 135

2008/2009. 51. 124. 26. 130

2009/2010. 46. 24. 37. 80

2010/2011. 31. 33. 80. 183

2011/2012. 34. 131. 91. 28

2012/2013. 26. 91. 115. 17

2013/2014*. 26. 49. 65. 23

Average. 48 113. 78. 92

Sorry formatting is off, on my iPad.


SLU has come on strong the past three season. The only question about the program is recruitment in the Crews era. Institutional fit, team basketball, media market - it all works. VCU is the only team to finish in the top 100 of the RPI in the past decade. Many question VCU without Shaka, but these statistics are from 3 different coaches. VCU played well OOC, to keep its RPI up when it played weak CAA teams before switching leagues.UR and Dayton have been up and down.

Many argue on this board about public schools overshadowing their media markets. Most of those schools are BCSand have football programs. VCU has a club team, and is at least a decade from, if ever, starting a team. It does however, alternate as the largest school in Virginia. VA is one of the fastest growing states, and is void of a strong program that most in the state follow for basketball. It is an over saturated market (14 D1 programs), but none has dominated since the 1980s (Ralph Sampson led UVA), ironically VCU can become the first virginia program since that team, to advance in the NCAA tournament 4 straight years. Richmond is the 58th largest Media Market, and is 68 miles from the 43rd largest Media Market of Newport News/VA Beach. The Big East would be wise to think strategically, to expand in an area of growing population, and in a school that can galvanize the population. The program might be able spread its reach into the Portsmouth area, and it actually carries its home market - due to it being a public school. This combined with its great recent success, a well liked coach should make it an attractive candidate in the future of the Big East, along with Saint Louis.

[lolhoya]

Yep, as the above stats show, VCU is clearly the best on court team in the past decade.

Bashing VCU for not advancing in the tourney is pretty ridiculous when the other candidate schools don't even MAKE the tournament nearly as often.

[Bill Marsh]

The fact that you don't respect the histories of these two programs reflects on you, not the programs. The VCU history, which includes NCAA tournament appearances in each of the past 4 decades, has been posted many times, but UMass has not.

UMass has great basketball history, dating back 50 years. It's more than the Calipari era. They were a power in the old Yankee Conference, winning 9 conference titles. In the '60's and '70's. Unfortunately, the NCAA, which was always biased against schools in the East, took away the conference's tournament bid at that time, eliminating their opportunity to win NCAA tournament games. Instead they went to the NIT, which was still a big deal back then and won tournament games there. The program is also about more than just Marcus Camby. It is also the program of legendary Hall of Famer, Doctor J. It is the program that launched the careers of Rick Pitino and Al Skinner

I was unaware of the NCAA taking away the Yankee Conference's automatic bid. However, I cannot find anything online that indicates why this action was taken, and why the Yankee Conference did not have an automatic bid from 1968-1975. What happened? Is it because the conference was so small? It only had six members, but at least today, six is the NCAA minimum for a conference to be formed.

As to whether the program is more than the Calipari era that may certainly be true. However, what's more pressing for any Big East president considering expansion (and considering UMass) is that UMass hasn't been a power since the Calipari era.

Even when this suggestion of "UMass to the Big East" began earlier this season, UMass was ranked after a 10-1 start (after beating New Mexico and Clemson), but they now appear to be reverting to form after losing to St. Bonaventure, St. Joe's, and Richmond. They are 5th in the A-10 at 4-3, out of the Top 25, and have returned to the same unranked position that until Thanksgiving of this year, the Minutemen have held every day of every season since November of 1998.

Put another way, Val Ackerman, Fox, and the 10 university presidents are not impressed with Dr. J's UMass's domination of URI, Pre-Calhoun UConn, Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont in 1971 when considering expansion.


The VCU NCAA Tournament history, as stated, outside of the 2011 Final Four run, is pretty unremarkable. 12 berths in 40 years, and outside of the 2011 Final Four run, zero trips to the second weekend. With a record of 12-12 overall, they're basically LaSalle (13-11) or SMU (10-12).

How can you just shrug off a Final Four run???

"Uh, other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

Come on. Be serious. VCU has enough history getting to the tournament to show that the 2010-11 season wasn't a fluke. They're not Wichita State, which really doesn't have much in their recent history besides the Final Four run.

VCU has answered the key question: Can you build a championship caliber program on that campus? You sure can. They've already done it. The comparisons to LaSalle and SMU are ridiculous. They've had far more success than either of those two. Much better facilities than LaSalle and very strong fan support.

As for UMass, you have no idea what Val Ackerman or anyone else at the Big East is impressed with. I was only answering the question about their traditions. They were a dominant power in the old Yankee Conference for 2 decades where they had a great rivalry with UConn. They produced a legendary Hall of Fame player and a number of other very good players. Unfortunately they received the same treatment from the NCAA that a lot of Eastern schools did in those days. Put that together with their more recent history in the '90's and you have enough memories to bring the alums back who remember the glory years.

The truth is that the pickings for the expansion that Fox wants are pretty slim right now. The argument that you're making against VCU can certainly be made against St Louis or Dayton - only more harshly. My argument is that the Big East has a better chance of thriving if its base is in the East instead of in the Midwest. So, the question is whether there are any viable options in the East. IMO, VCU and UMass do offer two of those viable options. Although UMass is only showing signs of life lately, it's no less than what Seton Hall or UConn showed when they were added in 1979. It's a starting point, something to build on.

VCU and UMass would bring to the Big East 2 East Coast universities with large enrollments and high visibility in relatively big states. Both would be capable of bringing large numbers of fans to the Garden for the Big East tournament. Both would be capable of building enthusiastic rivalries with existing Big East schools the way that Syracuse and UConn did. Both would strengthen the existing footprint instead of spreading it thin.

If the conference chooses to go in another direction, that's fine with me. I'm just saying that there are options.

[notkirkcameron]

Come on. Be serious. VCU has enough history getting to the tournament to show that the 2010-11 season wasn't a fluke. They're not Wichita State, which really doesn't have much in their recent history besides the Final Four run.

Said it before, I'll say it again. VCU = Wichita State East.

Wichita State
Type: Public
Market size: 67th
US News Ranking: Not Rated
2013 Average Basketball attendance: 10,312
NCAA Tournament Record since 1974 (when VCU started their program): 9-8
Final Fours since 1974: 1

VCU
Type: Public
Market size: 57th
US News Ranking: 167
2013 Average Basketball attendance: 7,693
NCAA Tournament Record: 12-12
Final Fours since 1974: 1

They're not institutional fits. They don't exactly have NCAA Tournament records that light the world on fire outside of one fluke Final Four run. They play in small markets unattractive to national television.

I can certainly appreciate the argument of "VCU can also get Newport News/VA beach etc.", but that ignores 1.) That both of those markets, if added, would be the second-smallest market in the Big East ahead of only Omaha, and 2.) That metro area is an hour and a half from Richmond. I'll admit to being a little unfamiliar with Virginia, but that kind of distance is like saying Marquette delivers the Chicago market, or that Villanova helps deliver the Baltimore market. While there are certainly a lot of Marquette alumni in Chicago, Chicago-area sports media doesn't exactly trip over themselves to cover Marquette unless they're playing DePaul.

[notkirkcameron]

Advancing in the tournament is important, but let's look outside of that and at the final RPI's of the teams discussed for expansion. This is a good barometer of where the team has been, regardless of Conference affiliation.

Nobody hangs banners for where they finished the season in some ranki-


Oh.

[Gopher+RamFan]

Come on. Be serious. VCU has enough history getting to the tournament to show that the 2010-11 season wasn't a fluke. They're not Wichita State, which really doesn't have much in their recent history besides the Final Four run.

Said it before, I'll say it again. VCU = Wichita State East.

Wichita State
Type: Public
Market size: 67th
US News Ranking: Not Rated
2013 Average Basketball attendance: 10,312
NCAA Tournament Record since 1974 (when VCU started their program): 9-8
Final Fours since 1974: 1

VCU
Type: Public
Market size: 57th
US News Ranking: 167
2013 Average Basketball attendance: 7,693
NCAA Tournament Record: 12-12
Final Fours since 1974: 1

They're not institutional fits. They don't exactly have NCAA Tournament records that light the world on fire outside of one fluke Final Four run. They play in small markets unattractive to national television.

I can certainly appreciate the argument of "VCU can also get Newport News/VA beach etc.", but that ignores 1.) That both of those markets, if added, would be the second-smallest market in the Big East ahead of only Omaha, and 2.) That metro area is an hour and a half from Richmond. I'll admit to being a little unfamiliar with Virginia, but that kind of distance is like saying Marquette delivers the Chicago market, or that Villanova helps deliver the Baltimore market. While there are certainly a lot of Marquette alumni in Chicago, Chicago-area sports media doesn't exactly trip over themselves to cover Marquette unless they're playing DePaul.

You really had to dig deep for that #6 Ranking banner, thankfully that abomination has been taken down.

No one claimed that VCU was an institutional fit; just the opposite. If they were, VCU would be in the Big East right now. VCU plays in the 57th Media Market, in a state without a professional sports team, which does not have a dominant basketball program. I drive to Portsmouth in about 45 minutes, but I understand your comparisons since I was born in Madison and come from the Midwest. The Va Beach area has no pro-sports teams either, their best basketball program is ODU who is playing in CUSA. Chicago kind of has its share of sports stories to cover, that 43rd Media market does not.

VCU has been a Top 100 team for the past 10 seasons, regardless of playing in the CAA - making they scheduled well outside of conference, and had to win. The program is on an upswing, through three different coaches. Shaka is the best one we've had, and is nationally known (and would love for the program to rise into the BE). VCU is looking to expand its arena, as well as braking ground on a new $15 million practice facility in April. It has sold out 45 consecutive games. VCU is currently being evaluated to host College Gameday by ESPN; which means it at least carries at least SOME national appeal. To pre-empt your argument about which other teams have hosted (LaSalle this year, Butler, Memphis) besides that, have all been BCS or Big East teams. LaSalle only received that honor due to the game being played at the Palestra against Temple.

No candidates are perfect, but I think it would be wise to pick a program whose leadership has shown the ability to make correct decisions at the leadership, and strategic levels. If I read right, you did your law studies at SLU, so you must have a type of vision, and great decision making skills (I am deciding between UR law, and American U's Masters in International Relations/International Law 4 year program). UR is a great school, but not a great following, Dayton has a great following but no great recent on-court success. SLU solves the media-market game, recent on court success (no deep tournament runs), but recruiting is a question mark in the Crews era. VCU is a public school, and in a smaller Media Market (which it delivers, unlike UR - read their boards about not getting enough coverage). Virginia has a power vacuum in College sports following, in regards to basketball. The Big East could try to capitalize on an up and coming program that has only been around for 40 years, yet has some great history and a dynamic coach who is hell-bent on making it a program, bringing in a Top 15 recruiting class. Without Shaka Smart VCU will continue to be a Top 100 team, outside the Big East or in. The big knock is it being a public school, even with no aspirations to start a football program.

If the Big East stays private, VCU obviously has no shot. It has out shown every other realistic potential program on the court, and through several coaches (Capel, Grant, Smart). It carries the same market that UR does not, has a larger market then Dayton. I think the most prudent course of action for the Big East is to select SLU and VCU. Create a 12 team Conference, reap the benefits of grabbing more bids, expanding fan bases, keeping the balance of East and West.

[xubrew]

Morbid curiosity here, but how many teams would we need to host an FCS/D1-AA football conference?

Currently, we have Nova, GTown, and Butler (in different conferences). VCU has an FCS team, right? Any other 'prospectives'?

You would need seven teams, and VCU does not have football.

[milwaukeejedi1]

In my opinion (if the conference is adding members), we should identify and invite them as soon as possible to help bolster the programs of the invited schools since conference affiliation affects recruiting. For example, joining the Big East helped Xavier land (based of ESPN rankings) three 4 star players and Creighton land two 4 star kids. According to Coach Mack of Xavier, the Big East is "a conference kids want to play in (http://www.bannersontheparkway.com/2014 ... ign=buffer)."

The Big East helped UCONN and PITT build successful/sustainable basketball programs. Before Calhoun and Howland, the previously mentioned teams were not powerhouses. In the case of VCU and SLU, currently successful teams, invite them and help them thrive.