Big East teams hurting each other; too much depth?

[MackNova]

There's a lot of depth, but it's mediocre depth. The old Big East had a few more cupcakes (USF most years, Rutgers every year), but the top level isn't that deep.

In the old Big East, you would have at least 3-4 opponents that were legitimate top 20 teams. In this conference, it's Nova, it's Creighton, then it's a huge batch of teams that are bubble teams or NIT teams. There aren't as many cupcakes to pad records on in the old league, but it's also very difficult to get big wins. That's what hurts the league. Unless you beat Villanova or Creighton, there aren't any wins at this league that are really standout wins.

It's not totally fair. I feel neither Nova nor Creighton gets the national credit it deserves, but that's what happens when you play for smaller fan bases on networks that people don't watch.

[Bill Marsh]

There's a lot of depth, but it's mediocre depth. The old Big East had a few more cupcakes (USF most years, Rutgers every year), but the top level isn't that deep.

In the old Big East, you would have at least 3-4 opponents that were legitimate top 20 teams. In this conference, it's Nova, it's Creighton, then it's a huge batch of teams that are bubble teams or NIT teams. There aren't as many cupcakes to pad records on in the old league, but it's also very difficult to get big wins. That's what hurts the league. Unless you beat Villanova or Creighton, there aren't any wins at this league that are really standout wins.

It's not totally fair. I feel neither Nova nor Creighton gets the national credit it deserves, but that's what happens when you play for smaller fan bases on networks that people don't watch.

I think you're going to be surprised. As we move through February, Big East teams are going to move up in the RPI rankings as teams from weaker leagues decline due to SOS. Given the way that the committee makes it's selections these days, having wins over cupcakes doesn't help. In fact, it's probably a detriment.

The old big east had 16 teams. That's the only way to get that many top 20 teams in one conference in an era when there is so much parity. The original Big East had more top 20 teams, but there simply wasn't the depth of good teams across the country that there is today.

[Lavinwood]

In regards to saying that Creighton and Nova don't get enough exposure due to being on FS1 instead of ESPN, I agree. I was so used to the old Big East being with ESPN, re-watching games on ESPN3 whenever I had class, watching on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, etc. People casually flipping through the channels would pass by our games all the time. If we got a big win it made headlines on ESPN.com as well as on SportsCenter. St. John's was almost always in the top 10 plays on SC in the old Big East. Now we haven't been at all, and there have been no shortage of highlight reel dunks and big shots by other teams. I never realized how blatantly biased ESPN was in favor of the teams they air vs. other conferences on different networks. I guess it makes sense they want to promote their teams, but shouldn't sports broadcasting be objective? Shouldn't they have a duty to give the public all the relevant news and hype up all the teams doing a great job even if they aren't in the ACC? This has been eye-opening for me. ESPN pushed Tebow on us, they pushed RG-III on us, and they pick and choose what they want to put emphasis on. Silly me for thinking it was mostly objective. I'm really hoping this conference can get back to being the unquestioned dominant force we are so used to being. I think we are having a down year with G'Town, SJ, SHU, Marquette, and Butler all reeling but will bring in a lot more talent soon. 2 of the teams that were supposed to compete for the #1 spot have been duds (G'Town and Marquette). Yes G'Town won the MSU game which was huge, but they need to keep it going too. SJ is the team that can put the Big East over the top if we can ever actually live up to hype for once. It's sad how we went from being the unquestioned top conference every year to analysts asking if we are better than the A-10 in 1 year. But given the state of affairs, this is still the best case scenario and it could have been a lot worse. Happy to be joined by other great basketball schools so we are all in this together.

[hoyahooligan]

I firmly expect Georgetown to win at least the next 6 games in a row and would not be surprised if they won their last 8 in a row in BE play. Georgetown was really hurt during their 5 game skid and despite all that should have beaten Xavier, Marquette, and Nova and were competitive @ Creighton. If we hadn't lost two starters we would easily be 7-2. I think people are dismissing Georgetown too easily. Now that we have Jabril back and have adjusted to life with out Smith the Hoyas are a serious threat. 10-8 is the minimum this team will end up at.

I think PC needs to just get to 9-9 + 1 in the BET to sneak into the tournament. St. John's, Butler and Seton Hall should be wins for them. If they can get one more on top of that they're golden.

Xavier needs 4 more wins and they have winnable games @ Butler, @ Marquette, @ St.John's and @ Seton Hall and Vs. DePaul.

[stever20]

Looking at the RPI Forecast- any move up due to SOS will be mitigated by the losing of games. Georgetown at 16-14 projection just not good enough to make the tournament. St John's 17-14 same thing. Marquette 16-15 same thing. In fact- all 3 of those teams are projected to drop in RPI the rest of the season. Providence right now is 37 but they're projected to be 49.3 end of the regular season because they're projected to go 4-5 rest of the season... Wins/Losses matter a lot.

1 thing we are kind of unlucky with is that Providence is the team that is right on the bubble. Of the top 6 teams projected by RPI forecast- Creighton, Villanova, Xavier, Providence, Georgetown, St John's- Providence has by far the worst OOC SOS. 164 vs next worst St John's at 123. You take St John's out, the next worst is Creighton all the way up at 64. As a result- while all 4 other teams have SOS overall of 22 24 14 13- Providence's overall SOS is 59th. Jet said that if they got to 9-9 they make the tourney. I don't think there's a chance of that. If they finish 9-9, that means they've gone 3-6 2nd half of the season. 19-12 projected RPI is 61.1. That's just not good enough. Tonight to me for PC is close to a must win for them.

And you bring up the committee. Last year the committee gave Mid Tennessee a spot- a team with 1 top 100 win.

[TheHall]

There's a lot of depth, but it's mediocre depth. The old Big East had a few more cupcakes (USF most years, Rutgers every year), but the top level isn't that deep.

In the old Big East, you would have at least 3-4 opponents that were legitimate top 20 teams. In this conference, it's Nova, it's Creighton, then it's a huge batch of teams that are bubble teams or NIT teams. There aren't as many cupcakes to pad records on in the old league, but it's also very difficult to get big wins. That's what hurts the league. Unless you beat Villanova or Creighton, there aren't any wins at this league that are really standout wins.

It's not totally fair. I feel neither Nova nor Creighton gets the national credit it deserves, but that's what happens when you play for smaller fan bases on networks that people don't watch.

If by mediocre depth you mean pretty solid relative to the power conferences then I agree otherwise I think that's too harsh a critique of the league this season.

Adam Zagoria ‏@AdamZagoria:

Only 4 of the BIg East's 10 teams are above .500 in the league right now -- Villanova, Creighton, Providence and Xavier. By contrast, 6 of the Big 12's 10 teams (yes, that's right) are above .500 -- Kansas, Texas, OU, Iowa St, K-State and West Va. In the ACC 6 of 15 teams are above .500 in the league. In the A-10, 7 of 13 teams are above .500. Lastly, in the Big Ten, only 3 of 12 teams are above .500 in the league -- Michigan State, Michigan and Iowa. Northwestern is 5-5.

Not outstanding from this perspective but he BE isn't that different than the other conferences at the moment and from an RPI perspective the BE is even more competitive. Also if by a few more cupcakes you meant 4 or 5 more in a given season over the past 10 yrs or so for the oBE (typically: RU, SHU, PC, Depaul, SJU, USF) vs. 0-1 this season, then I agree also otherwise again I think you are being unfair about the quality of the current league. Just becuase the league needs to get stronger at the top doesn't mean it can't be more than mediocre n the middle or that it's weak at the bottom.

[billyjack]

I think if GU gets to 9-9 (18-12) going into the BET, the committee can't ignore their wins vs MSU, K-State (by 30) and VCU. Currently, at 4-6 in BE, Georgetown's RPI is already #59...! And if they go 5-3 the rest of the way it will probably make them better than stever's magic #50 RPI mark. I think, like UNC with their great OOC wins, the Hoyas are a team that can make the NCAA's with an RPI that is worse than some other bubble teams (like St Mary's or that type).

Also, St John's is already as high as #76 in the RPI... same situation for them, if they go 9-9 or 10-8, meaning 6-3 or 7-2 in the BE back nine, they their RPI will have to have improved at least into the 50's or probably the 40's... also, notice that Xavier's RPI actually improved after last night's loss at Villanova, from #36 to #35.

[GumbyDamnit!]

I firmly expect Georgetown to win at least the next 6 games in a row and would not be surprised if they won their last 8 in a row in BE play. Georgetown was really hurt during their 5 game skid and despite all that should have beaten Xavier, Marquette, and Nova and were competitive @ Creighton. If we hadn't lost two starters we would easily be 7-2. I think people are dismissing Georgetown too easily. Now that we have Jabril back and have adjusted to life with out Smith the Hoyas are a serious threat. 10-8 is the minimum this team will end up at.

I understand your enthusiasm Hooligan but I think you are peering through a hopeful Hoya fan's specs. Let's be honest about Gtwn. To assume that they would be 7-2 at this point with or without injuries is being overly optimistic. They just came out of a 5 game losing streak. What conf game snapped that? At DePaul minus their best player, Melvin. A win vs a top 5 team surely helped but MSU just came off a big emotional win vs a top B1G rival and was down a couple players. You play who is in front of you...I get that, but with Payne in I think that game could have been much different.

I like Gtwn. Respect the hell out of that program; recognize them as our top rival in conference and generally root for them in every game they play minus the Nova ones. The BE needs a good Gtwn. But I also see a team that struggles for long stretches to score in many games I think JTIII is a very good coach but their style of play sometimes keeps them from coming back on teams when down big. I hope Gtwn has turned the corner but I do not think they are as good as Creighton or Nova and I can't see those two teams winning 8 in a row let alone another BE team.

[stever20]

I think if GU gets to 9-9 (18-12) going into the BET, the committee can't ignore their wins vs MSU, K-State (by 30) and VCU. At 4-6 in BE, Georgetown's RPI is already #59. And if they go 5-3 the rest of the way it will probably make them better than stever's magic #50 RPI mark. I think, like UNC with their great OOC wins, the Hoyas are a team that can make the NCAA's with an RPI that is worse than some other bubble teams (like St Mary's or that type).

Also, St John's is already as high as #76 in the RPI... same situation for them, if they go 9-9 or 10-8, meaning 6-3 or 7-2 in the BE back nine, they their RPI will have to improve at least into the 50's or probably the 40's... also, notice that Xavier's RPI actually improved after last night's loss at Villanova, from #36 to #35.

5-3 would get the Hoyas to 48.8 projected- so you are right- Barely! So 1st rd BET game would likely be win and in, lose and out propisition- though I agree 100% with you that they could make the NCAA with a rpi that is worse than other bubble teams. VCU win looking better and better. Kansas St may be regressing back a smidge, but still no matter what unless they lose out will be a top 100 win. What's amazing about Georgetown- JT3 did a lot of the OOC vs teams in the smaller conferences that he thought would win in them- but none have.

St John's- 9-9 only gets them to 19-12- 64.5 projected RPI. They even at 10-8/20-11 only are at 54.1. Their OOC schedule was not good. Best team they beat OOC was projected #99 San Francisco. 2nd best #134.2 Columbia.

[BEwannabe]

In regards to saying that Creighton and Nova don't get enough exposure due to being on FS1 instead of ESPN, I agree. I was so used to the old Big East being with ESPN, re-watching games on ESPN3 whenever I had class, watching on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, etc. People casually flipping through the channels would pass by our games all the time. If we got a big win it made headlines on ESPN.com as well as on SportsCenter. St. John's was almost always in the top 10 plays on SC in the old Big East. Now we haven't been at all, and there have been no shortage of highlight reel dunks and big shots by other teams. I never realized how blatantly biased ESPN was in favor of the teams they air vs. other conferences on different networks. I guess it makes sense they want to promote their teams, but shouldn't sports broadcasting be objective?

interesting sidebar, at my SuperBowl party Sunday and of course so many SB tv fans more interested in commercials than games an FS1 commercial ran in the 2nd half. The commercial on a big screen HD TV is very eye catching with the bright white (apple like background) the sound and effects. I was the only person in the room that had ever even heard of FS1, granted my SB party is not a big1 because I actually want to watch the game but my brother-in-law and father-in-law are avid sports watchers from mainline basketball, baseball, foootbal to golf and NASCAR. Never heard of FS1. News Corp has their hands full with this intiative, but don't expect any love from ESPN,CBS or NBC, ESPN/Disney plans on keeping everyone where they are (nowhwere) and CBS and NBC sports have the same lot in life as FS1.